Romans 5:1

[AustinC]

Why do you continue to ignore the scripture that I have shown you? You complain because I do not agree with your calvinist view. But you refuse to follow the bible unless you can fit it into your theology. When I post scripture you say it does nor mean what it says. You have constantly misrepresented what I say but I have gotten used to that coming from most of the calvinists I have dealt with.

The bible is the standard we are to hold to not your calvinism. God has given man a will, which by nature is free, i.e., it is not forced or necessarily inclined toward good or evil. You continue to reject this and say that man only has a free will so as to sin but the bible shows that man is expected to make real choices that have a real effect on their eternal future. How would that be possible without a free will?

I have answered all your scripture on multiple occasions, showing you that you fail in your interpretation and exalt yourself over Christ Jesus as you promote your self will over God's supreme authority. Yours is a tiresome, Judaizing philosophy that no serious Christian should ever consider valid for even a second. Yet, here you are, promoting yourself over God once again. There is no longer any need to rebuke your false doctrines. Those who have any spiritual discernment dismiss you out of hand. May God he merciful to you.

 

[Silverhair]

I have answered all your scripture on multiple occasions, showing you that you fail in your interpretation and exalt yourself over Christ Jesus as you promote your self will over God's supreme authority. Yours is a tiresome, Judaizing philosophy that no serious Christian should ever consider valid for even a second. Yet, here you are, promoting yourself over God once again. There is no longer any need to rebuke your false doctrines. Those who have any spiritual discernment dismiss you out of hand. May God he merciful to you.

Austin as per usual you use a lot of words to say nothing. Have you not figured it out yet, you are not disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with God. All I do is point out what the clear text of the bible is saying and you fight against it so that you can hold onto your calvinist theology.

You seem to think one has to prove your calvinist theology is wrong whereas it is you that has to prove that your theology is correct.

 

[AustinC]

Austin as per usual you use a lot of words to say nothing. Have you not figured it out yet, you are not disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with God. All I do is point out what the clear text of the bible is saying and you fight against it so that you can hold onto your calvinist theology.

You seem to think one has to prove your calvinist theology is wrong whereas it is you that has to prove that your theology is correct.

You are not God so it's clear I am disagreeing with you. The reality is that your teaching is not and has never been God's teaching.

The readers can note that you have already fallen on your fictional calvin sword.

 

[Silverhair]

You are not God so it's clear I am disagreeing with you. The reality is that your teaching is not and has never been God's teaching.

The readers can note that you have already fallen on your fictional calvin sword.

Blow and bluster all you want Austin. You do not like the scripture that I post so you disagree or just change the meaning of the words to suit your calvinism. So as I said you fighting with the bible not me. And as for calvinism that is your fiction not mine.

 

[AustinC]

Blow and bluster all you want Austin. You do not like the scripture that I post so you disagree or just change the meaning of the words to suit your calvinism. So as I said you fighting with the bible not me. And as for calvinism that is your fiction not mine.

I love the scripture posted. I find your interpretation to be entirely humanistic.

 

[Silverhair]

I love the scripture posted. I find your interpretation to be entirely humanistic.

You have to learn how to read the text as it is not as you would like it to be. Your calvinism is your blind spot.

 

[Van]

Sounds like you agree with my statement.

The moment God makes a person alive with Christ and grants them faith, they are also justified by that faith and made righteous before God.
God takes the person who is still dead in sin and He makes them alive with Christ. By grace He saves us, gives us faith, and justifies us as righteous by the faith which He gave us.

Do you have a problem with what I have said?

If you want to discuss my view of your views, start another thread and stop trying to derail this thread.

 

[Van]

It is a “forensic justification” that is a legal determination in a court of law. God is declaring them “not guilty” essentially, based upon faith in Christ Jesus, and therefore they have peace with God.

The passage isn’t really addressing how they got there, only the results of being there.

peace to you

Here is Romans 5:1 as I understand it:
Turning now to the last phrase in our verse, "through our Lord Jesus Christ." Here the Greek word is the preposition "dia" and when used to show instrumentality, could be translated "by the meritorious action of" our Lord Jesus Christ.

So here is an interpretive translation, As a result of God crediting our faith, having been justified on the basis of our credited faith, we have peace with God by the meritorious action of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus the verse says absolutely nothing about "forensic justification" in a court of law. And once again the false doctrine is that when God credits a person's faith as righteousness, the Calvinists mistakenly claim that makes they by declaration righteous. Total nonsense as it is the person's faith and not the person that is credited as righteousness.

 

[Silverhair]

I love the scripture posted. I find your interpretation to be entirely humanistic.

Since you find what I posted to be entirely humanistic perhaps you could point out what is humanistic about it. You like to make broad statements but provide no backup to your claims. Once again it is just you disagreeing with scripture. The truth is right there in clear English if you will just take off the calvinist blinders.

Austin the main difference between you and I is that I do not need to "interpret" or read special meaning into scripture, I just trust what the bible says.

Actually it has been pointed out to you numerous times that your understanding of the text Eph 2:1-9 is in error. You read into the text what you want to find. You keep saying that God gives man faith to believe and use these verses to prove your point but they actually prove just the opposite. We are saved because we believe.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Since you seem to doubt what the text says we just have to look back to
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now I know you are going to say that "the gift of God" is faith but once again Paul shows us what he meant.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Gift of God is salvation for all those that are in Christ Jesus, those that trust in the Son.

Why do you continue to struggle with the truth of scripture.
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[canadyjd]

Here is Romans 5:1 as I understand it:
Turning now to the last phrase in our verse, "through our Lord Jesus Christ." Here the Greek word is the preposition "dia" and when used to show instrumentality, could be translated "by the meritorious action of" our Lord Jesus Christ.

So here is an interpretive translation, As a result of God crediting our faith, having been justified on the basis of our credited faith, we have peace with God by the meritorious action of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus the verse says absolutely nothing about "forensic justification" in a court of law. And once again the false doctrine is that when God credits a person's faith as righteousness, the Calvinists mistakenly claim that makes they by declaration righteous. Total nonsense as it is the person's faith and not the person that is credited as righteousness.

I understand your position but disagree. Beginning in Romans 2, Paul speaks of the “judgement of God” at least 8 times to chapter 4, where he shifts to the imputed righteousness of Christ as justifying believers.

That is the context of Chapter 5. Paul is clearly speaking of a forensic (legal) justification in God’s final judgement based on Christ’s’ imputed righteousness to believers obtained by faith.

Peace to you

 

[Van]

I understand your position but disagree. Beginning in Romans 2, Paul speaks of the “judgement of God” at least 8 times to chapter 4, where he shifts to the imputed righteousness of Christ as justifying believers.

That is the context of Chapter 5. Paul is clearly speaking of a forensic (legal) justification in God’s final judgement based on Christ’s’ imputed righteousness to believers obtained by faith.

Peace to you

Your view is not supported by the context. God credited "his faith" as righteousness, not Abraham. The concept of a person being "declared righteous" rather than made righteous by the circumcision of Christ is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

I have discussed the word that can mean "declared righteous" but that meaning only applies to individuals declaring themselves righteous, but not to God whose method of making a person righteous is explicitly explained in scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

Your view is not supported by the context. God credited "his faith" as righteousness, not Abraham. The concept of a person being "declared righteous" rather than made righteous by the circumcision of Christ is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

I have discussed the word that can mean "declared righteous" but that meaning only applies to individuals declaring themselves righteous, but not to God whose method of making a person righteous is explicitly explained in scripture.

We disagree. Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Van]

We disagree. Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Note the explicit points of disagreement are not identified. Does God credit the whole person of just his or her faith according to scripture? My view, just his or her faith has been presented.

Does "declared righteous" apply to humans declaring themselves righteous? My view is yes.

What explicit verse says God declares an individual righteous, rather than God justified? Clearly all the support comes from translator choices as those same verses are also rendered justified. Whereas the ones stating God makes a person righteous contain the Greek word meaning made.

 

[Reformed1689]

Does "declared righteous" apply to humans declaring themselves righteous? My view is yes.

Wait, what?

 

[Van]

Wait, what?

The OP addressed the verses where humans declared themselves righteous, but to no avail.

 

[AustinC]

Since you find what I posted to be entirely humanistic perhaps you could point out what is humanistic about it. You like to make broad statements but provide no backup to your claims. Once again it is just you disagreeing with scripture. The truth is right there in clear English if you will just take off the calvinist blinders.

Austin the main difference between you and I is that I do not need to "interpret" or read special meaning into scripture, I just trust what the bible says.

Actually it has been pointed out to you numerous times that your understanding of the text Eph 2:1-9 is in error. You read into the text what you want to find. You keep saying that God gives man faith to believe and use these verses to prove your point but they actually prove just the opposite. We are saved because we believe.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Since you seem to doubt what the text says we just have to look back to
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now I know you are going to say that "the gift of God" is faith but once again Paul shows us what he meant.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Gift of God is salvation for all those that are in Christ Jesus, those that trust in the Son.

Why do you continue to struggle with the truth of scripture.
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

You trust God's Word, great. Therefore you will cast aside the humanistic philosophy of free will and you will embrace the Supreme Authority of God over all salvation. This is precisely what the Bible tells us and what your quotation of scripture tells you. Yet, here you are promoting your philosophy of humanism as the means by which you were saved.
I, and nearly every person here, reject your philosophy as man-centered and devoid of the glory of God.

 

[canadyjd]

Note the explicit points of disagreement are not identified….".

I thought the area of disagreement was clear based on my post, but I’ll say it again.

The context of Romans 5 begins in chapter 2 with discussion of God’s judgement which is mentioned at least 8 times through chapter 4. Paul then transitions to imputed righteousness of Christ through faith.

So the justification of chapter 5, in context, is a forensic (legal) justification in God’s court of law.

Hope that is specific enough. I know you disagree, do no need to respond

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

I thought the area of disagreement was clear based on my post, but I’ll say it again.

The context of Romans 5 begins in chapter 2 with discussion of God’s judgement which is mentioned at least 8 times through chapter 4. Paul then transitions to imputed righteousness of Christ through faith.

So the justification of chapter 5, in context, is a forensic (legal) justification in God’s court of law.

Hope that is specific enough. I know you disagree, do no need to respond

peace to you

The context begins in Romans 1 with regard to God's judgement. Paul continues the argument, comparing justification by works against justification by faith all the way through Romans 11. Romans 12-15 show us how then we should live. Romans 16 is the conclusive bookend to Paul's introduction in the first section of chapter 1. If we miss the whole of the letter we will undoubtedly conjure up a doctrine that is devoid of grace and the Supremacy of God over all things.

 

[Silverhair]

You trust God's Word, great. Therefore you will cast aside the humanistic philosophy of free will and you will embrace the Supreme Authority of God over all salvation. This is precisely what the Bible tells us and what your quotation of scripture tells you. Yet, here you are promoting your philosophy of humanism as the means by which you were saved.
I, and nearly every person here, reject your philosophy as man-centered and devoid of the glory of God.

So you have shown that you just ignore scripture and hold to your calvinist theology. Your refusal to trust in the bible is clear. You will not let scripture speak for itself but rather have to run the text of the bible through the filter of your calvinism. It is not that you can not see, it is that you refuse to see the truth of scripture.

Well since I was saved by the grace of God because of my faith in the risen Son and that the gift of God is eternal life and that is what the bible tells us and it seems that you do not believe that so then I would have to question your salvation.

The ones here that reject salvation by grace through faith are the calvinists and since you are in the minority in Christian thought I would say it is your ideas that are rejected by nearly everyone here. You are determined to live in your blinded state so I will leave you to it. All I can do is point you to the truth I can not make you believe it.

 

[AustinC]

So you have shown that you just ignore scripture and hold to your calvinist theology. Your refusal to trust in the bible is clear. You will not let scripture speak for itself but rather have to run the text of the bible through the filter of your calvinism. It is not that you can not see, it is that you refuse to see the truth of scripture.

Well since I was saved by the grace of God because of my faith in the risen Son and that the gift of God is eternal life and that is what the bible tells us and it seems that you do not believe that so then I would have to question your salvation.

The ones here that reject salvation by grace through faith are the calvinists and since you are in the minority in Christian thought I would say it is your ideas that are rejected by nearly everyone here. You are determined to live in your blinded state so I will leave you to it. All I can do is point you to the truth I can not make you believe it.

Once again you falsely accuse and blame a mythical calvin. You know what they say about a person who continues to do the same failure without ever changing. It is a sign of insanity.

You will never make me believe your humanism is truth, Silverhair. In fact, most people here find your humanism to be foolishness, and they are right to view your theology that very way. Your godless interpretation is to be avoided at all costs.