Romans 5:1

[Van]

Act 3:16
“And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Phl 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Based on Romans 4:23-25 and Romans 5:1, we see God's gracious and benevolent actions are taken on the basis of our faith being credited.

 

[Van]

Romans 5:1 (Interpretive translation) As a result of God crediting our faith, having been justified on the basis of our credited faith, we have peace with God by the meritorious action of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 5:1 (Interpretive translation) As a result of God crediting our faith, having been justified on the basis of our credited faith, we have peace with God by the meritorious action of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your "interpretive translation" lifts man to supremacy and attempts to bring God down. You are simply too blind to see it so God will need to correct you.

If God had not given you His gracious gift of faith, you would be a dead man walking.
God credits faith purely because it is his faith, which he gave you to believe. His gifted faith is righteous. Your man filled attempt at faith is filthy and empty of God's power.
Until you credit God with giving you your faith, you will be in error.

 

[Silverhair]

Your "interpretive translation" lifts man to supremacy and attempts to bring God down. You are simply too blind to see it so God will need to correct you.

If God had not given you His gracious gift of faith, you would be a dead man walking.
God credits faith purely because it is his faith, which he gave you to believe. His gifted faith is righteous. Your man filled attempt at faith is filthy and empty of God's power.
Until you credit God with giving you your faith, you will be in error.

You must not have thought the position stated in your post through to it’s logical outcome.

Rom 1:20 tells us that sinful man, that’s all of us, really have no excuse for not knowing their is a God. Now according to what you have posted God has to give a person the gift of faith so they can believe. I have to conclude that you get this idea from your reading of Eph 2:8.

Now we know that God would like all people to come to faith 1Ti 2:4 and because God loved us He sent the Son to be the propitiation for our sins 1Jn 4:10 and that the Son gave Himself as a ransom for all 1Ti 2:6 and by that is meant the whole world 1Jn 2:2.

When you consider that we are all sinners and according to you the only way a person can have faith is if God gives it to them, then all those that God does not give faith actually do have a real excuse. Those that are in hell never had a chance to be saved. Does that seem like the God who is love 1Jn 4:16?

God does not give us His faith so as to believe but He does give us the ability to exercise our faith so as to believe.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now in case you are going to say that the gospel is just foolishness to the lost 1Co 1:18. Let me remind you that if God is the one that gives faith to believe as you say then we are back to the same problem. It is not that they would not believe it is that they could not believe, according to you.

 

[Marooncat79]

Since you find what I posted to be entirely humanistic perhaps you could point out what is humanistic about it. You like to make broad statements but provide no backup to your claims. Once again it is just you disagreeing with scripture. The truth is right there in clear English if you will just take off the calvinist blinders.

Austin the main difference between you and I is that I do not need to "interpret" or read special meaning into scripture, I just trust what the bible says.

Actually it has been pointed out to you numerous times that your understanding of the text Eph 2:1-9 is in error. You read into the text what you want to find. You keep saying that God gives man faith to believe and use these verses to prove your point but they actually prove just the opposite. We are saved because we believe.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Since you seem to doubt what the text says we just have to look back to
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Now I know you are going to say that "the gift of God" is faith but once again Paul shows us what he meant.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Gift of God is salvation for all those that are in Christ Jesus, those that trust in the Son.

Why do you continue to struggle with the truth of scripture.
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Can you please explain Romans 12:3 in light of II Thess 3:2?

One (Romans 12:3) say God has all given us the faith to believe the Gospel while II Thess 3:2 says “not all have faith”

how can that be?

those 2 verses are diametrically opposed to each other in what you teach

we believe that God has given faith to the elect only especially since Romans was written to the Church at Rome and that is whom Paul is addressing

 

[Marooncat79]

I honestly thought that it was truly impossible to butcher that passage (Romans 5:1), but again, Van proved me wrong

 

[AustinC]

You must not have thought the position stated in your post through to it’s logical outcome.

Thanks for showing us how your mind twists things up. Your post here is a perfect example of how humanism works.

Rom 1:20 tells us that sinful man, that’s all of us, really have no excuse for not knowing their is a God. Now according to what you have posted God has to give a person the gift of faith so they can believe. I have to conclude that you get this idea from your reading of Eph 2:8.

Now we know that God would like all people to come to faith 1Ti 2:4 and because God loved us He sent the Son to be the propitiation for our sins 1Jn 4:10 and that the Son gave Himself as a ransom for all 1Ti 2:6 and by that is meant the whole world 1Jn 2:2.

I already went through 1 Timothy 2. You keep ignoring the context in the verses surrounding your quote. It seems you do this intentionally so as to misrepresent what God is saying.

When you consider that we are all sinners and according to you the only way a person can have faith is if God gives it to them, then all those that God does not give faith actually do have a real excuse. Those that are in hell never had a chance to be saved.

Does that seem like the God who is love 1Jn 4:16?

Here is one of your failed thoughts.
Humans do not go to hell only for not believing. They go to hell primarily for having rebelled and broken God's moral law. Being found guilty of breaking God's moral law, they are sent to hell. This is just and loving. You seem to reject this, however.

God does not give us His faith so as to believe but He does give us the ability to exercise our faith so as to believe.

Here is your humanism, perfectly articulated to us all. Here you lift up man upon the throne and exalt him. "All hail man" might be your motto.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Here we see how you openly ignore context. Your use of the Bible is worldly and carnal.

Now in case you are going to say that the gospel is just foolishness to the lost 1Co 1:18. Let me remind you that if God is the one that gives faith to believe as you say then we are back to the same problem. It is not that they would not believe it is that they could not believe, according to you.

Here you simply ignore Romans 1 and Romans 3 as well as Romans 9. It's according to God that he has "mercy upon whom he has mercy and hardens whom he wills."

Silverhair, you and I are secondary in salvation, but you keep fighting to make yourself primary in your salvation.

 

[Marooncat79]

Van

our opinions about how to interpret scripture are all irrelevant Whether it’s me, Austin, You or whomever.

rule #2 in hermeneutics is that Scripture only has 1 meaning and only 1 meaning, so these individualized meanings of yours are irrelevant and in most cases borderline heretical.

the Bible has been around 2,000 yrs and there is nothing that is truly new that can be said about it Rule #3 is that Scripture is clear in what it is conveying to mankind

some of your interpretations are of your own imagination and quite honestly it makes you look very bad to those who are even remotely skilled in the Word of God

also your use and knowledge of Koine Greek has also been proven to be quite deficient even in this current thread

You have been corrected over and over, yet continue anyways.

I am seriously only trying to help you out my friend.

your novel ideas and interpretations do much to harm the faith, please spend a lot of time learning from others before you go to correcting the original Greek and provide interpretations which are only serving to undermine the Word of God

please stop

 

[Silverhair]

Can you please explain Romans 12:3 in light of II Thess 3:2?

One (Romans 12:3) say God has all given us the faith to believe the Gospel while II Thess 3:2 says “not all have faith”

how can that be?

those 2 verses are diametrically opposed to each other in what you teach

we believe that God has given faith to the elect only especially since Romans was written to the Church at Rome and that is whom Paul is addressing

You do see the contrast that Paul mentions in 2Th 3:1-2. Brethren {believers} in vs 1 and unreasonable and wicked men {nonbelievers} vs 2. So here we see faith as a reference to salvation.

Now when we look at Rom 12:3 we see the phrase “God has dealt to each one a measure of faith”. You stated that they are “diametrically opposed to each other in what you teach” but is this view correct?

Once again we have to look to context to inform us. We see from Rom 12:1 that Paul is writing to the brethren {believers}. When you study the context Rom 12:3-8 we see that Paul is not speaking of salvation but rather of service. The expression “measure of faith” refers to the spiritual capacity and/or power given to each member of the body to carry out his or her function in and for the building up of the body. We see this stated clearly, by Paul, in 1Co 12:7-11 in speaking of the gifts of the Spirit.

You stated “we believe that God has given faith to the elect only”. What is your justification for that view? How does that view comport with:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

We can see in vs 22 that while the righteousness of God is offered to all it is only of benefit to those that believe. God does not give us His faith so as to believe but He does give us the ability to exercise our faith so as to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

Thanks for showing us how your mind twists things up. Your post here is a perfect example of how humanism works.


I already went through 1 Timothy 2. You keep ignoring the context in the verses surrounding your quote. It seems you do this intentionally so as to misrepresent what God is saying.


Here is one of your failed thoughts.
Humans do not go to hell only for not believing. They go to hell primarily for having rebelled and broken God's moral law. Being found guilty of breaking God's moral law, they are sent to hell. This is just and loving. You seem to reject this, however.


Here is your humanism, perfectly articulated to us all. Here you lift up man upon the throne and exalt him. "All hail man" might be your motto.



Here we see how you openly ignore context. Your use of the Bible is worldly and carnal.


Here you simply ignore Romans 1 and Romans 3 as well as Romans 9. It's according to God that he has "mercy upon whom he has mercy and hardens whom he wills."

Silverhair, you and I are secondary in salvation, but you keep fighting to make yourself primary in your salvation.

You have been shown the correct understanding of 1Ti 2:1-6 a number of times yet you just ignore it. The context of those verses tells us God desires “all men” to be saved, not just some men as you would have it understood. You fail again to see the truth in the words “Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all”. That is why Paul tells us to pray for “all men” which would include Kings and those in authority. By your logic we should only pray for “kings and all who are in authority”, what about the lost or our families?

Once again you overlook the fact we are all hell bound sinners. So it is not that we are different from those in hell. The reason they are there is because, according to your view, God did not give them faith so as to be saved. Can anyone keep God’s moral law so that they earn the right to be in heaven, NO. So the only difference is faith. Since by your view God has to give them faith, and He did not do so, then those that are in hell are there for that reason.

“God does not give us His faith so as to believe but He does give us the ability to exercise our faith so as to believe.” Your struggle with this just points out your theological error. The gospel of Christ, is the power of God to salvation and we are told that faith comes by hearing and believing the gospel message. Why do you deny this?

I notice that again you say I ignore context but you never show where that is so. Show me where context disagrees with what I have posted.

Faith in the Son is the condition that God has made. If man has to wait for God to give him this faith, as you posit, then those that do not get this faith can not be saved can they. So those in hell can rightly say to God, you never gave me faith so as to be saved. This is the error that your theology presents.

 

[Marooncat79]

You do see the contrast that Paul mentions in 2Th 3:1-2. Brethren {believers} in vs 1 and unreasonable and wicked men {nonbelievers} vs 2. So here we see faith as a reference to salvation.

Now when we look at Rom 12:3 we see the phrase “God has dealt to each one a measure of faith”. You stated that they are “diametrically opposed to each other in what you teach” but is this view correct?

Once again we have to look to context to inform us. We see from Rom 12:1 that Paul is writing to the brethren {believers}. When you study the context Rom 12:3-8 we see that Paul is not speaking of salvation but rather of service. The expression “measure of faith” refers to the spiritual capacity and/or power given to each member of the body to carry out his or her function in and for the building up of the body. We see this stated clearly, by Paul, in 1Co 12:7-11 in speaking of the gifts of the Spirit.

You stated “we believe that God has given faith to the elect only”. What is your justification for that view? How does that view comport with:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

We can see in vs 22 that while the righteousness of God is offered to all it is only of benefit to those that believe. God does not give us His faith so as to believe but He does give us the ability to exercise our faith so as to believe.

Useless drivel that makes no sense

 

[AustinC]

You have been shown the correct understanding of 1Ti 2:1-6 a number of times yet you just ignore it. The context of those verses tells us God desires “all men” to be saved, not just some men as you would have it understood. You fail again to see the truth in the words “Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all”. That is why Paul tells us to pray for “all men” which would include Kings and those in authority. By your logic we should only pray for “kings and all who are in authority”, what about the lost or our families?

Once again you overlook the fact we are all hell bound sinners. So it is not that we are different from those in hell. The reason they are there is because, according to your view, God did not give them faith so as to be saved. Can anyone keep God’s moral law so that they earn the right to be in heaven, NO. So the only difference is faith. Since by your view God has to give them faith, and He did not do so, then those that are in hell are there for that reason.

“God does not give us His faith so as to believe but He does give us the ability to exercise our faith so as to believe.” Your struggle with this just points out your theological error. The gospel of Christ, is the power of God to salvation and we are told that faith comes by hearing and believing the gospel message. Why do you deny this?

I notice that again you say I ignore context but you never show where that is so. Show me where context disagrees with what I have posted.

Faith in the Son is the condition that God has made. If man has to wait for God to give him this faith, as you posit, then those that do not get this faith can not be saved can they. So those in hell can rightly say to God, you never gave me faith so as to be saved. This is the error that your theology presents.

Sigh...your entire post here is inaccurate and you have shown such hubris as to make it a worthless attempt on my part to keep correcting your humanist teaching. People can read your posts and recognize your attempts to bring God down and lift man up

 

[Silverhair]

Useless drivel that makes no sense

So now you call the bible "Useless drivel". Your just proving yourself to be not worth the effort to deal with. Your comment does reveal a lot about your theology though.

 

[Silverhair]

Sigh...your entire post here is inaccurate and you have shown such hubris as to make it a worthless attempt on my part to keep correcting your humanist teaching. People can read your posts and recognize your attempts to bring God down and lift man up

Sigh. It is sad that you continue to ignore what the bible shows you. Your not disagreeing with me but with the bible. You are just upset because someone points out your errors. You hold to your calvinism and I will hold to the bible.

 

[Marooncat79]

So now you call the bible "Useless drivel". Your just proving yourself to be not worth the effort to deal with. Your comment does reveal a lot about your theology though.

Not at all

you need to learn to read and not misrepresent what people say

I called your interpretation useless drivel that makes no sense

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Not at all

you need to learn to read and not misrepresent what people say

I called your interpretation useless drivel that makes no sense

peace to you

As I said it says a great deal about what you think of scripture.

 

[Alan Gross]

You just deny scripture so as to support your calvinism.

Silverhair never told me he was a real Christian.

 

[Alan Gross]

You are now teach sacramental salvation then?

He's saying that the Saved soul was not Made Righteous before he was 'declared righteous', as if he 'had some mystical faith from within himself', then God Said, "Behold, I now Declare him Righteous", which would be unsound error.

Faith has an object. The soul, including Abraham's must be GIVEN Faith IN The Righteousness of Jesus.

THAT Faith IN Jesus Righteousness was Credited, Given, Imputed to Abraham.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another Calvinist trying to change the subject and derail the thread. They make up false charges non-stop.

Thank God, for real Christians.

 

[Alan Gross]

NASB
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The phrase for study in this verse is "justified by faith." Now the Greek word translated "justified" is also translated by some versions as "declared righteous." And the word certainly has both meanings within its semantic range. However if God is causing the righteousness, the word should be translated as made righteous or justified, rather than "declared righteous." A perusal of the places where "declared righteous" is intended are the verses where individuals declare themselves righteous. See Luke 7:29, 10:29 and 16:15.

The "by" in our phrase translates the Greek preposition "ek" which means (positionally) out of, and metaphorically based upon. Thus we are justified based on faith. Now is that any faith or only faith in Christ as credited by God? As credited by God. See Romans 4:23-25.

"Your people will be willing in the day of Your power." Psalm 110: