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Featured God's Two Pictures of the Atonement in the Sacrifices

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Aaron, Mar 15, 2022.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I say two views, but there are five main views, and that is in the five main offerings prescribed by God for the devout and the penitent Israelite. There are again many facets to behold in each of the five. But the offerings were divided into two main classes: those that are burned on the altar, and those that are burned on the ground. And that's what I mean by two pictures in the sacrifices.

    The first class, those offered on the altar, ascended as a sweet savor to God. These are offerings in which God is well pleased. These are the Burnt, Meat, and Peace Offerings. Lev. 1:1-3:17

    The second class of offerings are those which were banned from the altar. These are the sin and the trespass offerings. Lev. 4:1-7:27 These were burned on the ground as unclean things far away from God's abode. They did not rise a sweet savor, and so it is written, God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

    Both of these classes are instructive in what Christ accomplished with His one sacrifice, once for all. In the first class, we see an offering of a life in service to God, holy and acceptable to God, in which God is well pleased, in exchange for the life of the offerer. In the other we see a life submitted to the judgment of God for sin, in exchange for the life of the offerer.

    In the one class, the righteousness of the life offered in exchange, is imputed to the offerer, and in the other, the sin of the offerer is imputed to the life of the offering.

    In each case the offering is the substitute for the offerer. The offerer has no righteousness by which he can please God, so a spotless life is offered and "accepted for him." And "who can stand before His indignation?", so a spotless life is offered and judged for him.
     
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  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Lately on this board, this eminent view has come under assault. Coming only with their vague notions of the 'whole of Scripture,' their claim is made that this eminent picture is a novel view; that there is no Scripture by which to support it.

    God cannot be unjust, they say, and punish the innocent for the guilty, but I've also read that God will not justify the wicked.
    Will either deny that God did just that in each of their cases?

    They're well and good with the first class of offerings. That Christ is their substitute in righteousnes they will concede, because they do not see that it is that great of a need. If the affront of their sin to God is so small that God's wrath can justly be withheld from it, how can His demand for righteousness be so great?

    Unwilling to yield to the ample Scriptures provided to reprove them, there is another appeal they make, and that is to the alleged absence of the idea in early writings. Admittedly I have little time to delve into the vast body of literature of the early church. But I suspect that neither of these new detractors have scoured the literature themselves, dependent upon the presumed scholarship of others for their assertions, and upon our ignorance thereof to spare them from scrutiny.

    I've happened upon a blog in which the view of the early fathers on the atonement is dealt with extensively, and the theme of Penal Substitution is prominent. Again, lacking the time, I haven't looked too much into the blogger's own background or theology, but he appears from what I have seen to be a well educated Christian of the Reformed persuasion. It matters little except where ad hominem attacks may be made. What matters is the factual information offered concerning the early writings.
    So here it is. I would call on the defenders of the Gospel here to read and post applicable snippets.

    Church Fathers on Atonement
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Scripture presents one method of reconciliation. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Him. Christ's death of the cross purchased the right to forgive any human being. When God chooses an individual for salvation, based on crediting their faith as righteousness, He then places the individual into Christ (baptizes them into Christ) where then undergo the washing of regeneration, and arise in Christ a new creation, born anew, forgiven, made perfect.
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is an excellent document. For those who won't go through it, the author provides primary source documents and then creates a table to distinguish the various atonement theories represented.
    Screenshot_20220315-132433.png
     
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  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    bumping this thread up
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The ECFs, especially Justin Martyr, give very clear testimony to Penal Substitution.
    I'll post on this when I get a moment, but I'm preaching tomorrow and need to complete my preparation.
     
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  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

    That verse all alone shows penal substitution. Any denial of that is to deny scripture. He bore our sins means He is the substitute. For crying out loud to say that it doesn't is equivalent to denying something as simple as 1+1=2. There is no other possible and reasonable understanding of that verse.

    Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    He played down His life for us. He (who is innocent) had to die for us (who is not innocent).

    Any denial of PS has been thoroughly debunked at this point.


    Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

    Propitiation means to satisfy the wrath of God. This was done by the shedding of His blood. The reason for this was to show His righteousness. Meaning the sin of man was so terrible that one who was innocent had to be the one who made the sacrifice. This is not rocket science.

    Further, cherry picking those from the early church and denying others who clearly show they support PSA is a failure to be honest about the issue.
     
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  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    It's worth mentioning that the Holy Spirit does not share the concerns of these people.
    Through the Apostle Peter, for example, He testifies that God 'judges justly' (1 Peter 2:23) and then in the following verse affirms that Christ 'bore our sins'. Through Paul, He declares that setting forth Christ as a propitiation for our sins was a demonstration of God's justice, not a denial of it (Romans 3:25).

    The reasons for this are not hard to find. Firstly, God does not pick some random bloke to be made sin for us. It is God Himself (Acts of the Apostles 20:28), in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ who has willingly taken our sins upon Himself to satisfy His own justice and make propitiation for us.
    Secondly, the Lord Jesus is the Mediator (Hebrews 8:6) and the Surety (Hebrews 7:22) of the New Covenant. As Mediator, He must do everything necessary to reconcile sinners to God, and as Surety (or Guarantor), He must pay in full the debt of righteousness that Mankind is unable to pay, and the penalty for their sin.
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The interesting thing is that I agree with the ECF's in terms of what you see as proof of Penal Substitution Theory.

    As discussed on another thread, Penal Substitution Theory seems to mean different things to different people.

    What the ECF's confirmed is that Christ died for our sins, God laid our iniquity on Him, etc. All Christians believe this.

    It is important to recognize what the ECF's did not teach. Things like God punishing Christ, God having to punish sins to forgive sinners, Christ experiencing God's wrath, etc.

    Perhaps Penal Substitution would be better if it reverted back to the explanations of the ECFs.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 10:1-10, ". . . For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. . . ."
     
  12. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    the chastisement of our peace was upon him

    Me thinks a #2 in the signature is coming up...
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, the chastisement (or chastening) for our peace was upon Him.

    I am saying that the ECF's did not teach what we today call Penal Substitution. It was completely foreign to their doctrine.

    Dishonest men cherry pick comments from their writings and ignore other comments they wrote to "prove" otherwise.

    But it is a very low price for them to sell their character as it does not matter what the ECF's taught.
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Twas Brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    All mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe.

    Quoting Carrol does not change the fact that for almost two thousand years Christians did not interpret the chastisement that fell upon Christ as God punishing Christ instead of punishing us.

    It is telling that you are unable to comprehend Christianity before the 16th Century....that it is just beyond your grasp.... no nonsense to you.

    You are unable to defend your understanding because you cannot understand other views. To you it is foolishness. But to us, it is the power of God.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I am saying that the ECFs DID teach what today we call Penal Substitution. It was absolutely part of their doctrine.
     
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But the fact is they did not.

    You have assumed Penal Substitution Theory was present "in embryo". But the fact is that is just your assumption.

    When we look at their theology (what is actually recorded in their writings, not what you imagine they may have believed) Penal Substitution Theory is simply not there. In some cases (like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Origen) what is recorded of their teachings contradict Penal Substitution Theory.

    But you plow ahead, raping the works and thoughts of Christians who have lived before, cherry picking their words and ignoring what they actually wrote as a whole.

    For example - I strongly reject the idea that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

    BUT I have no issues with the views of the Early Church on Atonement.

    The reason is they do not make the claim you read into their words.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Jon, you are on an island of one. Even the early church fathers stand against you. You are attempting to thread a needle of nuance to keep arguing for what no early church father ever argued. It's best if you drop this and admit no one agrees with you.
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I am on an island with the majority of Christians.

    I think you know this, but do not want to admit it. In fact, not long ago you were condemning me and Agedman for the view (just to point out your level of integrity here) and that is just on this board.

    That said, most Christians disagreeing with your theory does not make your theory wrong. It is wrong because it is foreign to Scripture and obscures the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    You posting that the ECF's believed points we all agree upon does not prove anything. And they are not even the test of our faith.

    Penal Substitution theorists' desperate attempt to reinvent history is evidence, at least, that the theory is problematic.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Is this Penal Substitution Theory?

    The Cross was an undoing, through obedience, the disobedience of Adam thereby reconciling man to God.

    For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father’s will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, which the angels desire to look into; and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature, that is, to what had been moulded, and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God.

    Irenaeus
     
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