God's Two Pictures of the Atonement in the Sacrifices

[Martin Marprelate]

What I reject is the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.

That is, that God punished our sins on Christ instead of punishing us. That God separated from Christ on the cross.

For the record I will restate my view, which has been stayed dozens of times already.

Christ was forsaken. He was forsaken to suffer and die on the Cross. And God was faithful to deliver Him, not from death but through death.

Before you go off on another self-righteous rant, you need to reconcile these two statements.
The first one rejects the view that God forsook Christ on the cross.
The second says that He did. Unless you are saying that it was someone else who forsook Christ, in which case we have the Scriptures saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" And @JonC saying this means, "My God, My God, why has someone else forsaken Me?"
I think the fact is that you haven't a clue what you believe and you are floundering about trying to make it seem as if you have. And if you don't know what you believe, how on earth can you expect anyone else to? Finding out your views is like trying to nail jelly to the wall!

 

[JonC]

Before you go off on another self-righteous rant, you need to reconcile these two statements.
The first one rejects the view that God forsook Christ on the cross.
The second says that He did. Unless you are saying that it was someone else who forsook Christ, in which case we have the Scriptures saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" And @JonC saying this means, "My God, My God, why has someone else forsaken Me?"
I think the fact is that you haven't a clue what you believe and you are floundering about trying to make it seem as if you have. And if you don't know what you believe, how on earth can you expect anyone else to? Finding out your views is like trying to nail jelly to the wall!

It is not a self righteous anything. It has nothing to do with me, but you.

You said:

The Scriptures say, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" @JonC says this means, "My God, My God, You haven't forsaken Me."

I NEVER said "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" means, "My God, My God, You haven't forsaken Me."

I have consistently said the passage means Christ was forsaken to suffer and die, that the Father delivered Him not from death but through death.

And the sad part is YOU know it because you and I have had this discussion several times.

So your sin is willful and deliberate (it is sinning "with a high hand").

Rather than defending evil, adding sin on sin, consider your words and your character.

Simply stop making false accusations and address our disagreements in an honest manner. We do disagree. Let's talk about that. There is no need to make false accusations about me when there is enough that we disagree over.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have consistently said the passage means Christ was forsaken to suffer and die,

I am not making any false accusations as you very well know, and having a hissy fit because you are hoisted by your own petard does not change things..
You have denied for years that God forsook Christ, and even now you cannot bring yourself to write the words.
You say that Christ was forsaken to suffer and die. Who forsook Him?

 

[Silverhair]

I am not making any false accusations as you very well know, and having a hissy fit because you are hoisted by your own petard does not change things..
You have denied for years that God forsook Christ, and even now you cannot bring yourself to write the words.
You say that Christ was forsaken to suffer and die. Who forsook Him?

verb forsook/fəˈsʊk/ , forsaken/fəˈseɪk(ə)n/

• Abandon or leave.

God has forsaken Him or God forsook Him either way we do not see what you require, that the Father punished Him.

Actually we see that the Father just abandoned Christ in the hands of sinful man who punished Him by putting Him on the cross.

 

[JonC]

I am not making any false accusations as you very well know, and having a hissy fit because you are hoisted by your own petard does not change things..
You have denied for years that God forsook Christ, and even now you cannot bring yourself to write the words.
You say that Christ was forsaken to suffer and die. Who forsook Him?

No, that is dishonest of you and you know it.

I have argued for over a decade that the Father forsook Christ to suffer and die on the Cross, that the Father delivered Christ not from death but through death

I have even argued that this is how we know when Christians are forsaken to undergo suffering that God will always be there, and that He will deliver us, and it is for His glory.

And I have told you this over and over again.

But you are content with making false accusations because I do not believe God separated from Christ on the Cross.

We DO disagree, but you are making false accusations about me because of our disagreement. You sin.

You need the check your integrity, Martin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

verb forsook/fəˈsʊk/ , forsaken/fəˈseɪk(ə)n/

• Abandon or leave.

God has forsaken Him or God forsook Him either way we do not see what you require, that the Father punished Him.

Actually we see that the Father just abandoned Christ in the hands of sinful man who punished Him by putting Him on the cross.

verb forsook/fəˈsʊk/ , forsaken/fəˈseɪk(ə)n/

• Abandon or leave.

God has forsaken Him or God forsook Him either way we do not see what you require, that the Father punished Him.

Actually we see that the Father just abandoned Christ in the hands of sinful man who punished Him by putting Him on the cross.

Isaiah 53:10. There's no getting around it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, that is dishonest of you and you know it.

I have argued for over a decade that the Father forsook Christ to suffer and die on the Cross, that the Father delivered Christ not from death but through death

My clear recollection is that you resisted the concept of God forsaking Christ for the longest time, and it appears that you still do. The Lord Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsken Me?" not "My Father, My Father, why have You forsaken Me?" That God raised Christ from the dead (Acts of the Apostles 2:24 etc.), thereby delivering HIm from death is not an issue between us and never has been. But your definition of 'forsaking' is a false one as I show below.

I have even argued that this is how we know when Christians are forsaken to undergo suffering that God will always be there, and that He will deliver us, and it is for His glory.

And I have told you this over and over again.

Christians who undergo suffering are not forsaken by God (Isaiah 43:2; Acts of the Apostles 7:55-56; 2 Timothy 4:16-17). The forsaking of Christ was more than God merely allowing Him to suffer.
'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from saving Me, and from the words of My groaning?' It is precisely because the Lord Jesus was forsaken - that as a Man He felt His communion with His God and Father was utterly broken - that the Christian can know that He will never be forsaken. Our Lord has borne that part of hell along with the other parts on our behalf.

But you are content with making false accusations because I do not believe God separated from Christ on the Cross.

If He did not separate from Him, He did not forsake Him. You are playing with words.

We DO disagree, but you are making false accusations about me because of our disagreement. You sin.

You need the check your integrity, Martin.

We all need to check our integrity, but as far as you are concerned, my conscience is clear.

 

[JonC]

My clear recollection is that you resisted the concept of God forsaking Christ for the longest time, and it appears that you still do. The Lord Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why have You forsken Me?" not "My Father, My Father, why have You forsaken Me?" That God raised Christ from the dead (Acts of the Apostles 2:24 etc.), thereby delivering HIm from death is not an issue between us and never has been. But your definition of 'forsaking' is a false one as I show below.

Christians who undergo suffering are not forsaken by God (Isaiah 43:2; Acts of the Apostles 7:55-56; 2 Timothy 4:16-17). The forsaking of Christ was more than God merely allowing Him to suffer.
'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from saving Me, and from the words of My groaning?' It is precisely because the Lord Jesus was forsaken - that as a Man He felt His communion with His God and Father was utterly broken - that the Christian can know that He will never be forsaken. Our Lord has borne that part of hell along with the other parts on our behalf.

If He did not separate from Him, He did not forsake Him. You are playing with words.

We all need to check our integrity, but as far as you are concerned, my conscience is clear.

I did/ do reject your posts clamming that God (in any way) separated from Christ. But that is not what you said.

You made a false statement that I said Jesus was not forsaken.

I grant that you do not grasp how Christ could be forsaken by the Father to suffer and die without the Father separating from Christ. But that is on you, not me. The ECF's I quoted believed the same, but you did not understand that. And that is on you, not them.

It does not give you the right to make false accusations about me.

A better reply from you would have been simply that you do not understand, not attributing to people what they do not believe.

You were wrong to tell the board I believe something I don't.

 

[Silverhair]

Isaiah 53:10. There's no getting around it.

I do not reject what the verse says I just do not add into the verse what is not there.

The word here is the infinitive of Piel. ‘To bruise Him, or His being bruised, was pleasing to the Father;’ that is, it was acceptable to Him that he should be crushed by His many sorrows. That He was under such a weight of sorrows on account of our sins, that He was, as it were, crushed to the earth. It does not of necessity imply that there was any positive and direct agency on the part of the Father in bruising Him, but only that the fact of His being thus crushed and bruised was acceptable to him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is what you wrote:

That is, that God punished our sins on Christ instead of punishing us. That God separated from Christ on the cross.

And this is what I replied:

Well, what you are doing is making the Scriptures say the opposite of what they do say.
The Scriptures say, 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.' @JonC says this means that the LORD didn't bruise Him; He has not put Him to grief.
The Scriptures say, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" @JonC says this means, "My God, My God, You haven't forsaken Me."

I believe this to be perfectly fair comment because you have shown that you do not believe that God forsook the Lord Jesus in any meaningful way. To say that you do believe it is just playing with words. Again, perhaps you suppose that God 'separating' from Christ means that He somehow dismantled the Godhead?
What forsaking means is this:
'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are you so far from helping Me,
and from the words of My groaning?
O My God, I cry out in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season and am not silent.'

When Demas 'forsook' Paul, he departed (separated) from him (2 Timothy 4:10). He was not there to comfort him or hold his hand. 'Forsake' meant a whole lot more than just not preventing his imprisonment and impending execution.

That God heard the cry of the Lord Jesus is true. It was at the ninth hour that He cried out and at the ninth hour that the darkness lifted. This is the hinge in Psalms 22:21-22. But until that time, the Lord Jesus felt Himself utterly deserted. Otherwise He had no reason to utter His cry.

Sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:1-2). The Lord Jesus was the sin-bearer (1 Peter 2:24). As a Man, He underwent the separation from God that all unrepentant sinners will undergo (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

At the cross we see God’s plan of Redemption. God is not only holy and righteous, He is also love. He does not want to punish sinners. ‘”Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” Says the LORD God, “And not that he should turn from his ways and live?……..For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the LORD God, “Therefore turn and live!”’ (Ezek 18:23, 32). 2Sam 14:14 tells us that, ‘God devises ways so that a banished person does not remain estranged from Him.’ How can God be just and yet pardon guilty, hell-deserving sinners?

Only through the Lord Jesus Christ. He has taken upon Himself the debt for sin that we cannot pay. He has taken the punishment that we deserve. ‘….He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him’ (Isaiah 53:5). The prophet Nahum asked (Nah 1:6), ‘Who can stand before [God’s] indignation? And who can abide in the fierceness of His anger?’ Only the Lord Jesus Christ. There on the cross, all our sins were laid upon His sinless shoulders. ‘For [God] made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us’ (2Cor 5:21). He was made the very epitome of sin and the Father, who cannot look upon sin, turned away. As a sign of this, the sky was darkened and He hung there desolate and forsaken with the baying, jeering mob all around Him; the people mocking, the Pharisees gloating and even the other men on the cross reviling Him (Mark 15:32). The Apostles’ Creed says, ‘He descended into hell.’ This is hell- pain, darkness and separation from God. ‘These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power’ (2Thes 1:9). And Christ, the sinless, the innocent one suffered it all that we might be spared it.

He suffered anguish that we might know the joy of sins forgiven.
He was cast out that we might be brought in.
He was treated as an enemy that we might be welcomed as friends.
He surrendered to hell’s worst that we might attain heaven’s best.
He was stripped that we might be clothed with righteousness.
He was wounded that we might be healed.
He was made a shameful spectacle that we might inherit glory.
He endured darkness that we might experience eternal light.
He wept that all tears might be wiped from our eyes.
He groaned that we might sing songs of praise.
He endured all pain that we might know endless health.
He wore a crown of thorns that we might wear a crown of victory.
He bowed His head that we might lift up ours in heaven.
He died that we might live forever
[Adapted from a prayer in The Valley of Vision (ed. Arthur Bennet, Banner of Truth]