No, I didn't. I didn't even post on that thread. I liked a post. You interpret my non-activity as you interpret Scripture...which is why you are normally wrong.
Now go get me that shrubbery.
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JonC's view of Substitution in the Atonement
- Thread starter JonC
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Now go get me that shrubbery.
Yes you liked a post arguing that reconciliation is not salvation.
Now that you have (rightly) equated reconciliation with salvation you can say that we are saved by His death.
Welcome back to biblical Christianity.
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I have always equated salvation with reconciliation. As I have said, "atonement" in Scripture means reconciliation.Now you have (rightly) equated reconciliation with salvation you can say that we are saved by His death.
We are reconciled by His death (man is reconciled to God by His death), saved by His life (individual reconciliation).
Okay, show me that Scripture.
Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
'Atonement' dies not mean 'reconciliation' either in English or Scripture.
Christ's atoning sacrifice of Himself opened the was for man to be reconciled to God. 'For He [God] made Him [Chrsit] who knew no sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' The 'For' is the most important word.
From the OP: View of the substitution of atonement.
Would you buy/agree?
God created a being, the devil, who had the power of the death.
And that's what the devil, did, would do and is still doing. Therefore because of the devil having the power of, the death, God, before the foundation of the world, determined to:
Substitute himself as one subject to, the death, in order to destroy the devil and his works including, the death. 1 John 3:8 & Heb 2:14
How to do this? How about create a man, subject to, the death, give the man, a law, the power of the sin 1 Cor 15:56, sold under sin, take woman from the man, then send the Word born of the woman taken from the man as the Son of God subject to the power of death, having faith that sinless Son would give his sinless life (die the death of Gen 2:17) a ransom for that sold.
After three days and three nights give life again unto the Son raising him out of the dead (Sheol/Hades, incorruptible) thus setting the example for the destruction of the devil his works including the death. 2 Tim 1:10 and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news, Romans 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet (in quickness) quickly; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! 1 Cor 15:52-55 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Would you buy/agree?
God created a being, the devil, who had the power of the death.
And that's what the devil, did, would do and is still doing. Therefore because of the devil having the power of, the death, God, before the foundation of the world, determined to:
Substitute himself as one subject to, the death, in order to destroy the devil and his works including, the death. 1 John 3:8 & Heb 2:14
How to do this? How about create a man, subject to, the death, give the man, a law, the power of the sin 1 Cor 15:56, sold under sin, take woman from the man, then send the Word born of the woman taken from the man as the Son of God subject to the power of death, having faith that sinless Son would give his sinless life (die the death of Gen 2:17) a ransom for that sold.
After three days and three nights give life again unto the Son raising him out of the dead (Sheol/Hades, incorruptible) thus setting the example for the destruction of the devil his works including the death. 2 Tim 1:10 and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news, Romans 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet (in quickness) quickly; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen! 1 Cor 15:52-55 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
It does.
The word atonement is about the only theological term of English origin.
The English word ‘atonement’ is derived from the words ‘at-one-ment’, to make two parties at one, to reconcile two parties one to another. It means essentially reconciliation… In current usage, the phrase ‘to atone for’ means the undertaking of a course of action designed to undo the consequences of a wrong act with a view to the restoration of the relationship broken by the wrong act.
ATONEMENT: 1510s, "condition of being at one (with others)," a sense now obsolete, from atone + -ment. Theological meaning "reconciliation" (of man with God through the life, passion, and death of Christ) is from 1520s; that of "satisfaction or reparation for wrong or injury, propitiation of an offended party" is from 1610s.
Atonement - The word comes (in the early 16th century, denoting unity or reconciliation, especially between God and man), from at one + the suffix -ment, influenced by medieval Latin adunamentum ‘unity’, and earlier onement from an obsolete verb one ‘to unite’.
ATONEMENT - The reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.
See Oxford Research dictionary, Webster's Dictionary, Moody Handbook of Theology
Just a thought for what it is worth.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
1 Peter 1:18-20 having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
WHY? before the foundation of the world
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
1 Peter 1:18-20 having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
WHY? before the foundation of the world
We are justified and redeemed by the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus
Yes, too often people minimize the Resurrection.
Continuing, @Martin Marprelate
The work of Christ in reconciling God and men we call the Atonement - Joel Beeke
The English word atonement originally meant at-one-ment (spelled the same) and referred to any reconciliation of estranged parties. John Piper
The work of Christ in reconciling God and men we call the Atonement - Joel Beeke
The English word atonement originally meant at-one-ment (spelled the same) and referred to any reconciliation of estranged parties. John Piper
Which all happened via His death as the Sin bearer for his own people upon the Cross!
Uh, no. It cannot all happen at His death if it all depends on His death and life.
Why did God say that man is reconciled by His death, saved by His life?
Wow. We've already been through this. This isn't saying what you are saying at all. Let's do something that you constantly avoid doing . . . let's actually exegete a text.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Let's look first at it's context, in a letter to the saints in Rome, the Jewish saints primarily, but not exclusively.
Chapter 1: Their faith is commended and extolled, and their blessed estate, is contrasted with the estate of those who do not believe, and upon whom the wrath of God, not the peace of God, is revealed from Heaven. [Clearly, all mankind has not been reconciled.]
He is clearly at enmity with unbelievers . . .
Chapter 2: . . . jew and gentile alike . . .
Chapter 3: The Jews may make their boast in the law, but the law was not given to bring righteousness to the jews, it was given to exacerbate the sin of both jew and gentile. There is no righteousness apart from faith . . .
He is clearly at enmity with unbelievers . . .
Chapter 2: . . . jew and gentile alike . . .
Chapter 3: The Jews may make their boast in the law, but the law was not given to bring righteousness to the jews, it was given to exacerbate the sin of both jew and gentile. There is no righteousness apart from faith . . .
Chapter 4: . . . as the narrative concerning our father Abraham testifies.
Chapter 5: So, since we believers [not we mankind] have been justified by faith we believers have peace with God through Jesus, and by whom we believers have entered and celebrate this blessed estate of peace of which we were told in the first chapter.
But we can also celebrate in tribulations, knowing we will never lose this estate. God's grace will carry us through them.
Romans 5:9 How could we doubt that? If while under God's judgement Christ died for us, how much more now that we are justified by His blood, are we safe from wrath?
Romans 5:10: And if we are in a safe place from wrath by His death, just think about how much his living will keep us there.
His death saves us from wrath. His death reconciles us [believers and no one else] to God. He ever lives to make intercession for us.
And therefore in our meetings, at the Lord's Table, we show His death, till He come.
Yes. That is quite correct.
And this is right too. But note the word 'originally.' It does not mean that any more, and has not done so for a long time. Atonement can bring about reconciliation, but the two words are not synonymous.
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