Martin Luther and “ “Here I Stand”!

[VDMA]

Martin Luther and “Here I Stand”!

Sola Scriptura

“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures and by clear reason (for I do not trust in the pope or councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted. My conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.”

It is debatable if Martin Luther actually said the above quote.

What version of “Here I stand” is correct?

Baptist/Reformed/etc have taken the principal of the sola scriptura (A Baptist and a confessional Lutheran would not necessarily agree fully on definitions of the “five solas”) and had a number of their own “Here I stand” moments that ended up rejecting clear biblical teachings.

What Lutherans mean by sola scriptura is not necessarily the same as what a Baptist means by sola scriptura. I see the point that Catholics and Orthodox make, when they criticize Protestants. As a confessional Lutheran, I would uphold the historic apostolic biblical view of baptismal regeneration (and the necessity of baptism), I would also agree the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution (Office of the Keys) is clearly taught in sacred scripture, it is a biblical sacrament, I would also agree with Catholics that Christ is corporal present in the Eucharist (His true body and blood), I would also agree fully with Catholics on the Two Natures of Christ, but not with Calvinist and Zwinglians, case in point—there symbolic views on Eucharist. I would also agree with Catholics that, it is right to refer to the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary, the Ark of the living God, as the mother of God, etc. Main, point, Luther and Lutherans agree on many points with the Catholic Church (without getting into nuance). The point of the Reformation was not to be as un-Catholic as possible, but faithfully Catholic.

If Luther could surveyed the landscape he would be shocked grieved with what happened afterwards (he was grieved by division before his death). If you read Luther’s Works, he would not doubt anathematize 90% of Americans Protestantism. There is a disconnect between Baptist Protestantism and the historic church.

Why is the “Baptist” interpretation of scripture alone correct and not Confessional Lutheranism, etc.?

Sacred scripture clearly teaches sacramental theology. Did the Holy Spirit lead Baptist to reject baptismal regeneration, private confession and holy absolution, the real corporal presence in the Eucharist, the historic understanding of the two natures of Christ, etc.?

“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures and by clear reason, I am bound by the Scriptures”!

 

[Silverhair]

Martin Luther and “Here I Stand”!

Sola Scriptura

“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures and by clear reason (for I do not trust in the pope or councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted. My conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not retract anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen.”

It is debatable if Martin Luther actually said the above quote.

What version of “Here I stand” is correct?

Baptist/Reformed/etc have taken the principal of the sola scriptura (A Baptist and a confessional Lutheran would not necessarily agree fully on definitions of the “five solas”) and had a number of their own “Here I stand” moments that ended up rejecting clear biblical teachings.

What Lutherans mean by sola scriptura is not necessarily the same as what a Baptist means by sola scriptura. I see the point that Catholics and Orthodox make, when they criticize Protestants. As a confessional Lutheran, I would uphold the historic apostolic biblical view of baptismal regeneration (and the necessity of baptism), I would also agree the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution (Office of the Keys) is clearly taught in sacred scripture, it is a biblical sacrament, I would also agree with Catholics that Christ is corporal present in the Eucharist (His true body and blood), I would also agree fully with Catholics on the Two Natures of Christ, but not with Calvinist and Zwinglians, case in point—there symbolic views on Eucharist. I would also agree with Catholics that, it is right to refer to the Blessed Virgin Saint Mary, the Ark of the living God, as the mother of God, etc. Main, point, Luther and Lutherans agree on many points with the Catholic Church (without getting into nuance). The point of the Reformation was not to be as un-Catholic as possible, but faithfully Catholic.

If Luther could surveyed the landscape he would be shocked grieved with what happened afterwards (he was grieved by division before his death). If you read Luther’s Works, he would not doubt anathematize 90% of Americans Protestantism. There is a disconnect between Baptist Protestantism and the historic church.

Why is the “Baptist” interpretation of scripture alone correct and not Confessional Lutheranism, etc.?

Sacred scripture clearly teaches sacramental theology. Did the Holy Spirit lead Baptist to reject baptismal regeneration, private confession and holy absolution, the real corporal presence in the Eucharist, the historic understanding of the two natures of Christ, etc.?

“Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures and by clear reason, I am bound by the Scriptures”!

You have stated your position but you have not shown any scripture to support your view.

 

[VDMA]

You have stated your position but you have not shown any scripture to support your view.

I can assure you all the doctrines mentioned above are clearly taught in sacred scripture.

For example, the Office of the Keys.

A priest/pastor is your spiritual father, meaning that he has been ordained, called and appointed to tends our spiritual needs with word (law/gospel) and sacraments (e.g. holy baptism, private confession & holy absolution, the Blessed Sacrament, etc). My priest/pastor is my earthly “father confessor“ who tents to my spiritual needs and pronounces absolution, etc.

“Priesthood of all believers”

This is so misunderstood, it does not mean all are qualified to distribute word (law/gospel) and sacraments (e.g. Holy Baptism, private confession and Holy absolution, Holy communion, etc). For sure the general call to share the gospel is for all.

“Of course, Luther did believe that all Christians had direct access to God without recourse to what he polemically called “the tin gods and buffoons of this world.” But for Luther, the priesthood of all believers did not mean, “I am my own priest.” It meant rather: In the community of saints, God has so tempered the body that we are all priests to each other. We stand before God and intercede for one another, we proclaim God’s Word to one another and we celebrate his presence among us in worship, praise, and fellowship. Moreover, our priestly ministry does not terminate upon ourselves. It propels us into the world in service and witness.”

Also, what is this nonsense, I have hear from popular Baptist like Ray Comfort, telling someone not to confess their sins to a priest/pastor! That is a lie from the father of lies.

Can not a Christian confess his sins directly to God? Yes, God hears us whenever we pray (Ps 51:1-2, 139:1-4) but God has chosen to place His absolution in the mouth of the minister/priest whom He has sent (2 Sam. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:20). He has given his chosen minister the “office of the keys” to bind and loose sins (Jn. 20:21-23, Mat. 16: 19, Mat. 18:18, 1 Jn. 1: 8-9).

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Joh 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Most Protestants have a very low view of sacraments (most outright reject sacraments) and sadly reject the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution, the apostolic biblical view of holy baptism (baptismal regeneration), the true corporal body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, many believe the false teaching of “once saved always saved” etc.

 

[VDMA]

It is just a made up papist doctrine, tradition of men! Sigh, No, it clearly clearly biblical. Luther nor the Lutherans abolish the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution (or the Mass).

Office of the Keys, the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution is a gift to the Church and is clearly taught in sacred scripture. The Office of the Keys, is one of many historic doctrines rejected by most Protestants, despite it being clearly taught in sacred scripture.

 

[Walter]

If I did not have a Catholic Church to attend, I would fell very comfortable attending a 'confessional' Lutheran Church such as many LCMS churches are and, of course, WELS or the ELS.

 

[Silverhair]

I can assure you all the doctrines mentioned above are clearly taught in sacred scripture.

For example, the Office of the Keys.

A priest/pastor is your spiritual father, meaning that he has been ordained, called and appointed to tends our spiritual needs with word (law/gospel) and sacraments (e.g. holy baptism, private confession & holy absolution, the Blessed Sacrament, etc). My priest/pastor is my earthly “father confessor“ who tents to my spiritual needs and pronounces absolution, etc.

“Priesthood of all believers”

This is so misunderstood, it does not mean all are qualified to distribute word (law/gospel) and sacraments (e.g. Holy Baptism, private confession and Holy absolution, Holy communion, etc). For sure the general call to share the gospel is for all.

“Of course, Luther did believe that all Christians had direct access to God without recourse to what he polemically called “the tin gods and buffoons of this world.” But for Luther, the priesthood of all believers did not mean, “I am my own priest.” It meant rather: In the community of saints, God has so tempered the body that we are all priests to each other. We stand before God and intercede for one another, we proclaim God’s Word to one another and we celebrate his presence among us in worship, praise, and fellowship. Moreover, our priestly ministry does not terminate upon ourselves. It propels us into the world in service and witness.”

Also, what is this nonsense, I have hear from popular Baptist like Ray Comfort, telling someone not to confess their sins to a priest/pastor! That is a lie from the father of lies.

Can not a Christian confess his sins directly to God? Yes, God hears us whenever we pray (Ps 51:1-2, 139:1-4) but God has chosen to place His absolution in the mouth of the minister/priest whom He has sent (2 Sam. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:20). He has given his chosen minister the “office of the keys” to bind and loose sins (Jn. 20:21-23, Mat. 16: 19, Mat. 18:18, 1 Jn. 1: 8-9).

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Mat 18:18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Joh 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Most Protestants have a very low view of sacraments (most outright reject sacraments) and sadly reject the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution, the apostolic biblical view of holy baptism (baptismal regeneration), the true corporal body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, many believe the false teaching of “once saved always saved” etc.

The doctrines you are holding to are only found in scripture if you read them into scripture.

David did not receive absolution but judgment. Read 2Sa 12:11 & 14.

As to 2Co 5:20 Paul is imploring people to trust the gospel message. Paul was given the ministry of reconciliation not the gift of absolution. Only God can forgive sins. Context will show you this truth. 2Co 5:18-21

When you look at Joh 20:21-23, Mat 16:19, Mat 18:18 we see that same think spoken of, binding and loosing.

Jesus was giving the apostles (and by extension, the church/Christians) the privilege of announcing heaven’s terms on how a person can receive forgiveness.

If one believes in Jesus, then a Christian has the right to announce his forgiveness.

If a person rejects Jesus’ sacrifice, then a Christian can announce that that person is not forgiven.

The one that can forgive sins is God, not man. 1Jn 1:8-9 is clear we are all sinful but if we confess our sins then God, who is faithful, will forgive us.

You refer to “baptismal regeneration”, if you mean by this that one has to be baptized in order to be saved then you are adding a work to salvation and you are wrong. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son, Christ Jesus. So as to be clear, we are saved by God because of our faith in Christ Jesus not faith plus anything.

 

[Silverhair]

It is just a made up papist doctrine, tradition of men! Sigh, No, it clearly clearly biblical. Luther nor the Lutherans abolish the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution (or the Mass).

Office of the Keys, the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution is a gift to the Church and is clearly taught in sacred scripture. The Office of the Keys, is one of many historic doctrines rejected by most Protestants, despite it being clearly taught in sacred scripture.

\You are depending on the traditions of man and not the bible. Many people are misled when they allow tradition to overrule the truths of scripture.

 

[VDMA]

The doctrines you are holding to are only found in scripture if you read them into scripture.

David did not receive absolution but judgment. Read 2Sa 12:11 & 14.

As to 2Co 5:20 Paul is imploring people to trust the gospel message. Paul was given the ministry of reconciliation not the gift of absolution. Only God can forgive sins. Context will show you this truth. 2Co 5:18-21

When you look at Joh 20:21-23, Mat 16:19, Mat 18:18 we see that same think spoken of, binding and loosing.

Jesus was giving the apostles (and by extension, the church/Christians) the privilege of announcing heaven’s terms on how a person can receive forgiveness.

If one believes in Jesus, then a Christian has the right to announce his forgiveness.

If a person rejects Jesus’ sacrifice, then a Christian can announce that that person is not forgiven.

The one that can forgive sins is God, not man. 1Jn 1:8-9 is clear we are all sinful but if we confess our sins then God, who is faithful, will forgive us.

You refer to “baptismal regeneration”, if you mean by this that one has to be baptized in order to be saved then you are adding a work to salvation and you are wrong. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in His son, Christ Jesus. So as to be clear, we are saved by God because of our faith in Christ Jesus not faith plus anything.

ONLY GOD CAN SAVE!!! Congratulations, Catholics would be agree with you.

Nice try. The doctrine of private confession and holy absolution, baptismal regeneration or the true body and blood of Christ are taught in sacred scripture (all the church fathers, etc). Baptist, are forced to explain the text away, and not to mention all of church history. My only conclusion, there must be a level of spiritual blindness in order not to see it. I understand it, my wife was a fundamental Baptist.

Baptism, private confession and holy absolution, is God’s work. You did your best to try to explain away the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution. Private confession and holy absolution is gospel!

Seriously, David did not receive absolution? Really?

2Sa 12:11-14 (LSBN): David is rebuked by Nathan in this way. Terrified, he says, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ This is contrition. Afterward, he hears the Absolution.… This voice encourages David, and through faith it sustains, justifies, and enlivens him” (Ap XIIA 56). Cyril of Jerusalem: “Straightway the Prophet appeared as accuser, and the offender confesses the fault. And because he candidly confessed, he received a most speedy cure. For Nathan the Prophet who had uttered the threat, said immediately, The Lord also has put away your sin. You see the swift relenting of a merciful God”

Apology of the Augsburg Confession: art. xii, par. 56

[56] In the same way, David, reprimanded by Nathan and thus filled with terror, says [2 Sam. 12:13], “I have sinned against the Lord.” This is contrition. Then he hears the absolution [2 Sam. 12:13], “Now the Lord has put away your sin; you shall not die.” This Word uplifts David and by faith sustains, justifies, and revives him. A punishment is also added here, but it does not merit the forgiveness of sins. [57] Specific punishments are not always added; but in repentance these two things, contrition and faith, must always be present, as in Luke 7[:37f]

David repented received absolution. He believed Nathan the Prophet who had uttered the threat, said immediately, The Lord also has put away your sin. David was absorbed by Nathan the prophet which is nothing more than the forgiveness of God and received faith.

Private confession and holy absolution is gospel!

A baptized saint can look their baptism (water baptism) and objectively know they’ve been baptized into Christ, they can go to private confession and receive absolution, they can receive the true corporal body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, etc. Sacraments such as baptism are not a “get out of jail card” to live a life of unrepentant sin, a baptized saint lives in daily repentance and by faith. “Once saved always saved” is a lie from the father of lies.

Where do you receive forgiveness of sins?

God offers his forgiveness of sins though word and sacraments; Holy baptism (baptismal regeneration), private confession & Holy absolution, sacrament of the Altar (Eucharist, the medicine of mortality), where there is forgiveness of sin there is life. Sacramental benefits are received by faith.

I’ve seen Baptist/Reformed in despair because they are rightly grieving over their sins and it grieves me because they reject the sacraments or they're struggling with assurance because of false teachings of election. Sure they'll confess their sins to one another but skoff at the idea private confession and holy absolution or Christ really didn't die for all, or it go the other way “once saved always saved” antinomians and live as unrepentant heathens because you’re too busy being saved by grace through faith.

Martin Luther: Book of Concord, A Brief Exhortation to Confession

Excerpt:

[28] Thus we teach what a wonderful, precious, and comforting thing confession is, and we urge that such a precious blessing should not be despised, especially when we consider our great need. If you are a Christian, you need neither my compulsion nor the pope’s command at any point, but you will force yourself to go and ask me that you may share in it. [29] However, if you despise it and proudly stay away from confession, then we must come to the conclusion that you are not a Christian and that you also ought not receive the sacrament. For you despise what no Christian ought to despise, and you show thereby that you can have no forgiveness of sin. And this is a sure sign that you also despise the gospel.
[30] In short, we want nothing to do with compulsion. However, if anyone does not hear and heed our preaching and warning, we shall have nothing to do with such a person who ought not have any part of the gospel. If you are a Christian, you should be glad to run more than a hundred miles for confession, not under compulsion but rather coming and compelling us to offer it. [31] For here the compulsion must be reversed; we are the ones who must come under the command and you must come in freedom. We compel no one, but allow ourselves to be compelled, just as we are compelled to preach and administer the sacrament.
[32] Therefore, when I exhort you to go to confession, I am doing nothing but exhorting you to be a Christian. If I bring you to this point, I have also brought you to confession. For those who really want to be upright Christians and free from their sins, and who want to have a joyful conscience, truly hunger and thirst already. They snatch at the bread just like a hunted deer, burning with heat and thirst, [33] as Psalm 42[:1*] says, “As a deer longs for flowing streams, so my soul longs for you, O God.” That is, as a deer trembles with eagerness for a fresh spring, so I yearn and tremble for God’s Word or absolution and for the sacrament, etc. [34] In this way, you see, confession would be taught properly, and such a desire and love for it would be aroused that people would come running after us to get it, more than we would like. We shall let the papists torment and torture themselves and other people who ignore such a treasure and bar themselves from it. [35] As for ourselves, however, let us lift our hands in praise and thanks to God that we have attained to this knowledge and grace."

Sadly, Protestant have rejected the sacrament of private confession and holy absolution.

Psa 32:3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away through my groaning all day long.

Private Confession and Absolution is an absolute gift to the church. The Seal of confession also brings comfort knowing that my confessions will never be divulged to anyone, under any circumstances.

One who commit mortal sin needs to be going to confession, etc. There is a distinction between mortal and venial. The Church has been given the Office of the Key’s to bind and loose for a reason. Mortal sin shows contempt towards God’s the divine law and kills faith. Some examples of mortal sin: pornography, abortion, adultery, etc.

It is really prideful to think, one does see any need to confess there sins to their under shepherd. Especially, the one refusing to go because they are worried about the approval of man (what their father confessor might think) and would rather carry the shame. It is crazy, and dangerous—spiritually.

 

[VDMA]

The Lutheran rite based off our catechism.

Individual Confession and Absolution (Lutheran service book pg 292)

You may prepare yourself by meditating on the Ten Commandments (pages 321-322). You may also pray the penitential psalms (6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, or 143).

When you are ready, kneel and say:

Pastor/Father, please hear my confession and pronounce forgiveness in order to fulfill
God's will.

Proceed.

I, a poor sinner, plead guilty before God of all sins. I have lived as if God did not matter and as if I mattered most. My Lord's name I have not honored as I should; my worship and prayers have faltered. I have not let His love have its way with me, and so my love for others has failed. There are those whom I have hurt, and those whom I have failed to help. My thoughts and desires have been soiled with sin.

If you wish to confess specific sins that trouble you, continue as follows:

What troubles me particularly is that…

Confess whatever you have done against the commandments of God, according to
your own place in life.

The pastor may gently question or instruct you- not to pry or judge-but to assist
in self-examination.

Then conclude by saying:

I am sorry for all of this and ask for grace. I want to do better.

God be merciful to you and strengthen your faith.

Amen.

Do you believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?

Yes.

The pastor places his hands on the head of the penitent and says:

In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

The pastor may speak additional Scripture passages to comfort and strengthen the faith of those who have great burdens of conscience or are sorrowful and distressed.

The pastor concludes:
Go in peace.
Amen.

You may remain to say a prayer of thanksgiving. Psalms 30, 31, 32, 34, 103, or 118 are also appropriate.

 

[Silverhair]

You want to put man on the place of God. The bible disagrees with you.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

 

[VDMA]

You want to put man on the place of God. The bible disagrees with you.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.

Sigh: You put MAN in the place of God! NO.

I will say this once more. Can not a Christian confess his sins directly to God? Yes, God hears us whenever we pray (Ps 51:1-2, 139:1-4) but God has chosen to place His absolution in the mouth of the minister/priest whom He has sent (2 Sam. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:20). He has given his chosen minister the “office of the keys” to bind and loose sins (Jn. 20:21-23, Mat. 16: 19, Mat. 18:18, 1 Jn. 1: 8-9).

When a repent sinner goes to private confession and is absolved? Who’s forgiveness do you think he is receiving?

Is it the Priest forgiveness or Christ forgiveness and by what authority?

Think about it for a moment get back to me.

Excerpt: The rite of private confession and holy absolution.

Do you believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?

Yes.

The pastor places his hands on the head of the penitent and says:

In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

Sigh: You put MAN in the place of God! NO.

I will say this once more. Can not a Christian confess his sins directly to God? Yes, God hears us whenever we pray (Ps 51:1-2, 139:1-4) but God has chosen to place His absolution in the mouth of the minister/priest whom He has sent (2 Sam. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:20). He has given his chosen minister the “office of the keys” to bind and loose sins (Jn. 20:21-23, Mat. 16: 19, Mat. 18:18, 1 Jn. 1: 8-9).

When a repent sinner goes to private confession and is absolved? Who’s forgiveness do you think he is receiving?

Is it the Priest forgiveness or Christ forgiveness and by what authority?

Think about it for a moment get back to me.

Excerpt: The rite of private confession and holy absolution.

Do you believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?

Yes.

The pastor places his hands on the head of the penitent and says:

In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Notice your last words "I forgive you all your sins". Man can not forgive sins, only God can do that. You want to lift up the priest to the position of God. Sorry, when you say that you are clearly wrong.

 

[VDMA]

Notice your last words "I forgive you all your sins". Man can not forgive sins, only God can do that. You want to lift up the priest to the position of God. Sorry, when you say that you are clearly wrong.

No, that would be a misrepresentation. Lutherans do not believe our priest have some indelible character like Catholics (tho we do believe ordination is sacramental).

You right, as a Lutheran, I believe only God can forgive. Even Catholics believe only God can forgive—shocker. It is not even an agreement because we all agree, only God can forgive.

Catholics would argue, that Lutherans do not have valid sacraments (apart for Baptism and Holy matrimony), because we do not have ecclesiastical and apostolic succession (I would argue that we do). Lutherans believe it is God‘s word attached to the sacraments, which makes it a valid sacrament, sacramental benefits are received by faith, faith in Christ Jesus. Whereas, Catholics, need, holy orders, the sacrament of ordination (indelible character) that make the sacraments valid.

Lutherans have a high view of the office of pastor, you will not find elders and laity doing the work of the pastors in confessional Lutheranism because they are not called and ordained. You cannot distribute word and sacraments without a proper call.

“The Priesthood of all believers” is wildly misunderstood. This does not mean all are qualified to distribute word (law/gospel) and sacraments (e.g. Holy Baptism, private confession and Holy absolution, Holy communion, etc). For sure the general call to share the gospel is for all.

Augsburg Confession: Article XV"

"Our churches teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church, or administer the Sacraments, without a rightly ordered call.

Baptist down play how God has chosen to mediates with His people. He has sent, called ordained pastors to distribute word and sacraments. Baptist, down play baptism (ironically they call themselves “Baptist”, but have a very low view of baptism), they down play the Lord’s Super (which I would argue that don’t have it), etc.

I find it odd that many Protestants fight against the idea of private confession and holy absolution, I am curious what is so offensive about it. It is clearly a biblical doctrine taught in sacred scripture. It strikes me as odd, sacred scripture clearly teaches us to “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. Confession, is life giving and allow for a clear conscience. There is no better person to confess your sins to than your “father confessor” pastor, who has been called and ordained to minister to spiritual needs, and distribute word and sacraments.

There is the general public absolution in the Divine Services (Mass) and private absolution. For confession Lutherans private confession and holy absolution is optional, it is never mandated, however it should never be despised either (Catholics are required at least once a year, Orthodox are required twice a year). There is a couple nuances differences between Lutherans and Catholics, Catholics require penitence, Lutherans do not, however, that does not necessarily mean they are not required to do something (e.g. if you stole a cow, you would receive the absolution, then you have to return the cow, the fruit of repentance).

Jas 5:16 -James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God.

Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 -even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

1 Tim. 2:5 -Christ is clearly the only mediator, and to be clear all can forgive sins, however, Christ have give us minsters. The Lord chose to send priests/pastors to carry out His work of Word and Sacraments.

This does not mean one cannot receive forgiveness apart from private confession, though it may be necessary, in the case of grievances mortal sins (e.g. pornography, adultery, etc.). Forgiveness of sins comes to us in multiple ways, His Word and His Sacraments. God’s word is attached to the sacraments, receive by faith.

Jn 20:22 -the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. Confession is life giving, where there is forgiveness of sins, there is life. Going to confess is gospel to the repent sinner.

Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The Office of the Key’s is clearly taught in sacred scripture. There is no way around it. It is not some made up papist doctrine, it is a gift to the church.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that would be a misrepresentation. Lutherans do not believe our priest have some indelible character like Catholics (tho we do believe ordination is sacramental).

You right, as a Lutheran, I believe only God can forgive. Even Catholics believe only God can forgive—shocker. It is not even an agreement because we all agree, only God can forgive.

Catholics would argue, that Lutherans do not have valid sacraments (apart for Baptism and Holy matrimony), because we do not have ecclesiastical and apostolic succession (I would argue that we do). Lutherans believe it is God‘s word attached to the sacraments, which makes it a valid sacrament, sacramental benefits are received by faith, faith in Christ Jesus. Whereas, Catholics, need, holy orders, the sacrament of ordination (indelible character) that make the sacraments valid.

Lutherans have a high view of the office of pastor, you will not find elders and laity doing the work of the pastors in confessional Lutheranism because they are not called and ordained. You cannot distribute word and sacraments without a proper call.

“The Priesthood of all believers” is wildly misunderstood. This does not mean all are qualified to distribute word (law/gospel) and sacraments (e.g. Holy Baptism, private confession and Holy absolution, Holy communion, etc). For sure the general call to share the gospel is for all.

Augsburg Confession: Article XV"

"Our churches teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church, or administer the Sacraments, without a rightly ordered call.

Baptist down play how God has chosen to mediates with His people. He has sent, called ordained pastors to distribute word and sacraments. Baptist, down play baptism (ironically they call themselves “Baptist”, but have a very low view of baptism), they down play the Lord’s Super (which I would argue that don’t have it), etc.

I find it odd that many Protestants fight against the idea of private confession and holy absolution, I am curious what is so offensive about it. It is clearly a biblical doctrine taught in sacred scripture. It strikes me as odd, sacred scripture clearly teaches us to “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. Confession, is life giving and allow for a clear conscience. There is no better person to confess your sins to than your “father confessor” pastor, who has been called and ordained to minister to spiritual needs, and distribute word and sacraments.

There is the general public absolution in the Divine Services (Mass) and private absolution. For confession Lutherans private confession and holy absolution is optional, it is never mandated, however it should never be despised either (Catholics are required at least once a year, Orthodox are required twice a year). There is a couple nuances differences between Lutherans and Catholics, Catholics require penitence, Lutherans do not, however, that does not necessarily mean they are not required to do something (e.g. if you stole a cow, you would receive the absolution, then you have to return the cow, the fruit of repentance).

Jas 5:16 -James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God.

Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 -even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

1 Tim. 2:5 -Christ is clearly the only mediator, and to be clear all can forgive sins, however, Christ have give us minsters. The Lord chose to send priests/pastors to carry out His work of Word and Sacraments.

This does not mean one cannot receive forgiveness apart from private confession, though it may be necessary, in the case of grievances mortal sins (e.g. pornography, adultery, etc.). Forgiveness of sins comes to us in multiple ways, His Word and His Sacraments. God’s word is attached to the sacraments, receive by faith.

Jn 20:22 -the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. Confession is life giving, where there is forgiveness of sins, there is life. Going to confess is gospel to the repent sinner.

Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The Office of the Key’s is clearly taught in sacred scripture. There is no way around it. It is not some made up papist doctrine, it is a gift to the church.

You are trying to lift up man to the position of God. The only one that I need to confess to is God as He is the only one that can forgive my sin. You have taken Jas 5:16 and imposed your theology on it. I could tell some man/priest every sin I have ever committed and I would still not have my sins forgiven as he can not forgive sin.

What is the rock upon which the kingdom shall be build what are the keys to the kingdom? From what I you have said you seem to have a wrong understanding of these.
The rock that the church will be build upon is “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”.Mat 16:16 The reality that Christ Jesus is the messiah, the only means of salvation.
The keys to the kingdom come through the gospel message, that you should repent and believe.

When a sinner truly repents of his sins and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, a Christian can declare that person's sins to be forgiven. When a sinner rejects the Savior, a Christian worker can declare his sins to be retained. The Christian is not, by their power, declaring this but is just confirming what the bible has told us is the truth because of their rejection or acceptance of the Christ Jesus.

 

[VDMA]

You are trying to lift up man to the position of God. The only one that I need to confess to is God as He is the only one that can forgive my sin. You have taken Jas 5:16 and imposed your theology on it. I could tell some man/priest every sin I have ever committed and I would still not have my sins forgiven as he can not forgive sin.

What is the rock upon which the kingdom shall be build what are the keys to the kingdom? From what I you have said you seem to have a wrong understanding of these.
The rock that the church will be build upon is “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”.Mat 16:16 The reality that Christ Jesus is the messiah, the only means of salvation.
The keys to the kingdom come through the gospel message, that you should repent and believe.

When a sinner truly repents of his sins and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, a Christian can declare that person's sins to be forgiven. When a sinner rejects the Savior, a Christian worker can declare his sins to be retained. The Christian is not, by their power, declaring this but is just confirming what the bible has told us is the truth because of their rejection or acceptance of the Christ Jesus.

More bad characters. Of course Christ is the Rock of the Church and only means in which we can lay our hope.

Right, all can exercise the office of the keys (never refuted that). However, God have giving us His church and called ordain ministers as the primary means in which word and sacraments are distributed.

I will say this one last time. Can not a Christian confess his sins directly to God? Yes, God hears us whenever we pray (Ps 51:1-2, 139:1-4) but God has chosen to place His absolution in the mouth of the minister/priest whom He has sent (2 Sam. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:20). He has given his chosen minister the “office of the keys” to bind and loose sins (Jn. 20:21-23, Mat. 16: 19, Mat. 18:18, 1 Jn. 1: 8-9).

Here is a concept that is totally foreign to Baptist. The Divine Service (Mass), the Office of the Keys is executed, with binding and loosing of sin, the absolution, law and gospel, the blessed sacrament, the true body and blood of Christ, for the forgiveness of sins, etc.

When it comes down to it Baptist have stripped away the means of grace. The sacramental, liturgical life of the church has been stripped away. Baptist would say you are saved by the word, Lutherans would say you are saved by word and sacrament, and God’s word is attached to the sacraments. The means of grace which Christ instituted have been stripped away in Baptist churches.

This might come across as offensive, but I do not believe Baptist churches are legitimate churches. The church is anywhere word (law/gospel) and sacraments at righty distributed. You do not have a church without the Blessed Sacrament, the medicine of immortality, Christ corporal body and blood, for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Silverhair]

More bad characters. Of course Christ is the Rock of the Church and only means in which we can lay our hope.

Right, all can exercise the office of the keys (never refuted that). However, God have giving us His church and called ordain ministers as the primary means in which word and sacraments are distributed.

I will say this one last time. Can not a Christian confess his sins directly to God? Yes, God hears us whenever we pray (Ps 51:1-2, 139:1-4) but God has chosen to place His absolution in the mouth of the minister/priest whom He has sent (2 Sam. 12:13; 2 Cor. 5:20). He has given his chosen minister the “office of the keys” to bind and loose sins (Jn. 20:21-23, Mat. 16: 19, Mat. 18:18, 1 Jn. 1: 8-9).

Here is a concept that is totally foreign to Baptist. The Divine Service (Mass), the Office of the Keys is executed, with binding and loosing of sin, the absolution, law and gospel, the blessed sacrament, the true body and blood of Christ, for the forgiveness of sins, etc.

When it comes down to it Baptist have scorched earth theology. The sacramental, liturgical life of the church has been stripped away. Baptist would say you are saved by the word, Lutherans would say you are saved by word and sacrament, and God’s word is attached to the sacraments. The means of grace which Christ instituted have been stripped away in Baptist churches.

This might come across as offensive, but I do not believe Baptist churches are legitimate churches. The church is anywhere word (law/gospel) and sacraments at righty distributed. You do not have a church without the Blessed Sacrament, the medicine of immortality, Christ corporal body and blood, for the forgiveness of sins.

You continue to elevate man. I continue to elevate God. You follow man-made doctrines. I continue to follow the bible.

Lutherans have held onto to many of the RCC ideas rather than just trust what the bible says. We will always disagree but what you have said tells me a lot.

 

[Reformed1689]

Because it is ridiculous beyond belief and not in Scripture!

 

[Marooncat79]

And the mods continue to let this go on!!

smh

 

[Squire Robertsson]

You haven't reported any posts. The Admin Team doesn't read everything.

And the mods continue to let this go on!!
smh

 

[Salty]

Lets talk about Communion
It is only a symbol of what Christ did on the Cross
He is NOT sacrificed each time we observe
The waffer and juice do NOT become His body and blood.