Acts 2:47 – The Bible vs Human Theology

[The Archangel]

Are you ever going to engage with what I wrote (and re-quoted above) or are you just going to keep on making the on-going and unfounded assertion that I'm wrong?

Nothing further to say, and you are not humble enough to admit that you are 100% WRONG as I have shown many times, when you wrote

This is wrong. πᾶς is not where the KJV gets "whosoever." And, I might add, the translation "whosoever" is wrong

Unless you admit that you are wrong here, I will no longer respond.

So.... your answer would be "no." You're not going to engage with the Greek in my posts. Ok...

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

Some examples where the Greek adjective, "πᾶς", is translated as WHOSOEVER in the KJV, in relation to salvation, and some other Versions

John 11:26, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

John 12:46, "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness"

Acts 2:21, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Acts 10:43, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"

Romans 10:11, "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed"

Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Some of the other English Versions, use various words, that basically agree with the KJV's WHOSOEVER

ASV, NKJV, Websters, "whosoever"; NASB, WEB, "whoever"; ESV, NET "everyone"; NLT, NIV, "anyone"

There can be no doubt, that "πᾶς", is not restricted in its meaning to "all", and does also mean, ANYONE, WHOSOEVER, WHOEVER, EVERYONE", etc, etc.

Taking the NET Bible reading for John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life". it is clear that "πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων", is here translated, "everyone who believes", who are from "τὸν κόσμον", the "entire human race"; as opposed to "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", in verse 18, who are also from "τὸν κόσμον".

Some try to misrepresent what Jesus is saying here, by attaching "πᾶς", to those who "πιστεύων", and not to "τὸν κόσμον". What Jesus says is clear, "God so LOVES, with a SAVING LOVE, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE". However, only those "who BELIEVE", from the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, will be saved; and those "who DISBELIEVE", the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, are already condemned.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You're not going to engage with the Greek in my posts

HOW can I, seeing that you are a MASTER of Greek, and I am only KOINE!

 

[The Archangel]

HOW can I, seeing that you are a MASTER of Greek, and I am only KOINE!

You’re still only saying that this version or that version translates this word this way or that way. You still haven’t said why they translate it a certain way.

The Archangel


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[SavedByGrace]

You’re still only saying that this version or that version translates this word this way or that way. You still haven’t said why they translate it a certain way.

The Archangel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because the Greek adjective allows their translation

Since neither of us were part of these translators, we cannot know the why they chose the word they did

 

[The Archangel]

Some examples where the Greek adjective, "πᾶς", is translated as WHOSOEVER in the KJV, in relation to salvation, and some other Versions

John 11:26, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

John 12:46, "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness"

Acts 2:21, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Acts 10:43, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"

Romans 10:11, "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed"

Romans 10:13, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Some of the other English Versions, use various words, that basically agree with the KJV's WHOSOEVER

ASV, NKJV, Websters, "whosoever"; NASB, WEB, "whoever"; ESV, NET "everyone"; NLT, NIV, "anyone"

There can be no doubt, that "πᾶς", is not restricted in its meaning to "all", and does also mean, ANYONE, WHOSOEVER, WHOEVER, EVERYONE", etc, etc.

Let's see....

John 11:26: πᾶς + the articular participle(s). πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων “all the ones living and believing”

John 12:46: πᾶς + the articular participle. πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων “all the ones believing”

Acts 2:21: πᾶς + relative pronoun and a third-class subjunctive verb. πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται “whosoever calls.” “Whosoever” is appropriate here because of the subjunctive protasis and the future apodosis

Acts 10:43: πᾶντα + the articular participle. πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα “all the ones believing”

Romans 10:11: πᾶς + the articular participle. πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων “all the ones believing”

Romans 10:13: πᾶς + relative pronoun and a third-class subjunctive verb. πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται “whosoever calls.” “Whosoever” is appropriate here because of the subjunctive protasis and the future apodosis

As I've stated now numerous times "every one who" is an appropriate translation of πᾶς + article. What it does not mean is "Whosoever." Whosoever is far too indefinite for the grammar. The literal, wooden translation of "all who believe" shows a definiteness.

Taking the NET Bible reading for John 3:16, "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life". it is clear that "πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων", is here translated, "everyone who believes", who are from "τὸν κόσμον", the "entire human race"; as opposed to "ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων", in verse 18, who are also from "τὸν κόσμον".

Some try to misrepresent what Jesus is saying here, by attaching "πᾶς", to those who "πιστεύων", and not to "τὸν κόσμον". What Jesus says is clear, "God so LOVES, with a SAVING LOVE, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE". However, only those "who BELIEVE", from the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, will be saved; and those "who DISBELIEVE", the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, are already condemned.

πᾶς is not "attached to τὸν κόσμον;" it is attached to ὁ πιστεύων. You're missing a heck of a lot in the grammar, namely the ἵνα. You can't have "all the world" here. The first part of the verse is:
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, woodenly translated "In this manner for (because it's a post-positive particle and cannot begin a sentence) loved God the world." So, smoothing it out, it should say "For God loved the world in this manner." Then you get the ὥστε to introduce the dependent clause τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, woodenly translated "the son the unique he gave." Smoothing this out it should say (with the ὥστε) "that he gave his unique son." Now comes the ἵνα clause, "so that" in a final sense. And what is the "goal," so to speak of the ἵνα clause? Salvation. For who? "All the ones believing," or "everyone who believes."

Your idea of πᾶς applying to τὸν κόσμον is far outside the grammar. You would have to mix the clauses together and detach the meaning from each one. The three clauses fit together rather handsomely, but they don't address "the world" in the way you want them to.

You see, John 3:16 says nothing about why or why not any of the "believing ones" believed. It only says salvation is given to the "believing ones." John 3:3 gives us a clue as to why they believe (being born again from above). But, John 3:16 does not speak to such things in and of itself.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

Let's see....

John 11:26: πᾶς + the articular participle(s). πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων “all the ones living and believing”

John 12:46: πᾶς + the articular participle. πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων “all the ones believing”

Acts 2:21: πᾶς + relative pronoun and a third-class subjunctive verb. πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται “whosoever calls.” “Whosoever” is appropriate here because of the subjunctive protasis and the future apodosis

Acts 10:43: πᾶντα + the articular participle. πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα “all the ones believing”

Romans 10:11: πᾶς + the articular participle. πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων “all the ones believing”

Romans 10:13: πᾶς + relative pronoun and a third-class subjunctive verb. πᾶς ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται “whosoever calls.” “Whosoever” is appropriate here because of the subjunctive protasis and the future apodosis

As I've stated now numerous times "every one who" is an appropriate translation of πᾶς + article. What it does not mean is "Whosoever." Whosoever is far too indefinite for the grammar. The literal, wooden translation of "all who believe" shows a definiteness.



πᾶς is not "attached to τὸν κόσμον;" it is attached to ὁ πιστεύων. You're missing a heck of a lot in the grammar, namely the ἵνα. You can't have "all the world" here. The first part of the verse is:
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, woodenly translated "In this manner for (because it's a post-positive particle and cannot begin a sentence) loved God the world." So, smoothing it out, it should say "For God loved the world in this manner." Then you get the ὥστε to introduce the dependent clause τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, woodenly translated "the son the unique he gave." Smoothing this out it should say (with the ὥστε) "that he gave his unique son." Now comes the ἵνα clause, "so that" in a final sense. And what is the "goal," so to speak of the ἵνα clause? Salvation. For who? "All the ones believing," or "everyone who believes."

Your idea of πᾶς applying to τὸν κόσμον is far outside the grammar. You would have to mix the clauses together and detach the meaning from each one. The three clauses fit together rather handsomely, but they don't address "the world" in the way you want them to.

You see, John 3:16 says nothing about why or why not any of the "believing ones" believed. It only says salvation is given to the "believing ones." John 3:3 gives us a clue as to why they believe (being born again from above). But, John 3:16 does not speak to such things in and of itself.

The Archangel

I can see that all you are doing as I suspected all along, is to argue from your THEOLOGY, and not from the Greek grammar!

GOD Loves the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, with a SAVING LOVE. However, He has place CONDITIONS on who can get saved, which is REPENTANCE and FAITH. ONLY those "WHO BELIEVE" will bew saved. BUT, this does not negate the fact that God still LOVES the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

John Calvin had no problem in understanding what Jesus says here

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Now you will probably say that Calvin is wrong, and that he also does not know Greek, and ONLY YOU are the EXPERT!

John Calvin was NOT a "Calvinist"!

My end of discussion on this

 

[The Archangel]

I can see that all you are doing as I suspected all along, is to argue from your THEOLOGY, and not from the Greek grammar!

GOD Loves the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, with a SAVING LOVE. However, He has place CONDITIONS on who can get saved, which is REPENTANCE and FAITH. ONLY those "WHO BELIEVE" will bew saved. BUT, this does not negate the fact that God still LOVES the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

John Calvin had no problem in understanding what Jesus says here

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

Now you will probably say that Calvin is wrong, and that he also does not know Greek, and ONLY YOU are the EXPERT!

John Calvin was NOT a "Calvinist"!

My end of discussion on this

So…. You’re still not going to deal with the Greek…?

The Archangel


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[SavedByGrace]

So…. You’re still not going to deal with the Greek…?

not got time to waste with YOUR Greek!

 

[AustinC]

GOD Loves the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, with a SAVING LOVE. However, He has place CONDITIONS on who can get saved, which is REPENTANCE and FAITH. ONLY those "WHO BELIEVE" will bew saved. BUT, this does not negate the fact that God still LOVES the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

sbw, how many times can you state this and not once recognize that you have killed grace with your assertion?

 

[The Archangel]

not got time to waste with YOUR Greek!

I noticed you only posted what others have said.... You still haven't been able to tell us why they said what they said from the Greek. You did a word search for what you thought the underlying Greek was, when I pointed out that not everything was as you assumed it was, you didn't deal with it at all. Then you launch into the ridiculous thing about Calvin and me being a Calvinist. Again, I've not read Calvin at length.

It seems, though, from this post:

Some try to misrepresent what Jesus is saying here, by attaching "πᾶς", to those who "πιστεύων", and not to "τὸν κόσμον". What Jesus says is clear, "God so LOVES, with a SAVING LOVE, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE". However, only those "who BELIEVE", from the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, will be saved; and those "who DISBELIEVE", the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, are already condemned.

That you think πᾶς somehow applies to τὸν κόσμον and somehow says "all the world" is quite problematic. Your ranting caps above "ENTIRE HUMAN RACE" show a real lack of understanding of Greek and the surrounding grammar. Maybe you're saying "entire human race" simply from τὸν κόσμον, but it appears (in the post quoted above) that you want to include πᾶς with τὸν κόσμον, which just doesn't work. Perhaps if you'd like, I could share why that is.... again.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

There is NO PAST tense in the Greek “τοὺς σῳζομένους”! it is PRESENT

I'm still trying to figure out how you can say "there is no past tense in Greek."

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm still trying to figure out how you can say "there is no past tense in Greek."

The Archangel

if you can read English, I am talking about “τοὺς σῳζομένους”, which is Present Passive Participle. Not talking about the Greek language!

 

[The Archangel]

if you can read English, I am talking about “τοὺς σῳζομένους”, which is Present Passive Participle. Not talking about the Greek language!

Your uncalled-for animus is noted.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

Your uncalled-for animus is noted.

The Archangel

you as silly questions because you don't fully read what I wrote! Not the first time either

 

[The Archangel]

you as silly questions because you don't fully read what I wrote! Not the first time either

Well... I don't know what "you as silly questions" means. Language matters, as does care in your language. Now, none of us is perfect; typos do exist. Even the best writer can be unclear at times. But you did say:

The Greek, “τοὺς σῳζομένους”, is the present, active participle, and CANNOT have a PAST TENSE!

The issue over whether it is active or passive (it's passive) was discussed. And, perhaps this was an overstatement on your part. But saying a word "cannot" have a past tense and saying that it "is not in" the past tense are two entirely different things.

So, your animosity is misplaced and uncalled-for.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

Well... I don't know what "you as silly questions" means. Language matters, as does care in your language. Now, none of us is perfect; typos do exist. Even the best writer can be unclear at times. But you did say:



The issue over whether it is active or passive (it's passive) was discussed. And, perhaps this was an overstatement on your part. But saying a word "cannot" have a past tense and saying that it "is not in" the past tense are two entirely different things.

So, your animosity is misplaced and uncalled-for.

The Archangel

lets try it again

There is NO PAST tense in the Greek “τοὺς σῳζομένους”! it is PRESENT

by IN TH GREEK, I am here referring ONLY to "σῳζομένους”, where the tense is PRESENT, and therefore CANNOT mean "PAST"

surely you can understand this?

 

[The Archangel]

lets try it again

There is NO PAST tense in the Greek “τοὺς σῳζομένους”! it is PRESENT

by IN TH GREEK, I am here referring ONLY to "σῳζομένους”, where the tense is PRESENT, and therefore CANNOT mean "PAST"

surely you can understand this?

It was never about my understanding.

The Archangel

 

[SavedByGrace]

It was never about my understanding.

The Archangel

Really?

in #53 you wrote

I'm still trying to figure out how you can say "there is no past tense in Greek."

The Archangel

This is a MISUNDERSTANDING by YOU, as you did not read what I wrote!

Can you ever admit that you can be wrong?

 

[37818]

???