Why?

[Marooncat79]

1. The internet is a bad place to refine one’s theology

2. Yes, A &E had free will, and were not Totally Depraved until AFTER THE FALL. We do not because of the fall.

 

[Silverhair]

1. The internet is a bad place to refine one’s theology

2. Yes, A &E had free will, and were not Totally Depraved until AFTER THE FALL. We do not because of the fall.

Where in the bible do you see that A & E were totally depraved after the fall? Did you find something different in the words God spoke to A & E
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

As for finding that comment on the net you did not answer to it did you? The question by KenH

So why did you believe and someone else did not? Were you smarter? Luckier?

FREE WILL do you agree or disagree?

If you disagree then respond to the quote.
"In terms of why one person chooses one way, while another person chooses another way, why do you believe that Adam & Eve (two perfectly sinless creatures) choose to misuse their freedom and fall? Why did the woman first choose to disobey, and then her husband second? They did not have total depravity. So how do you account for their free choices, apart from the same type of free-will that Arminians espouse?"

It's easy to say you disagree but give clear scripture that says we are totally depraved.

 

[AustinC]

Where in the bible do you see that A & E were totally depraved after the fall? Did you find something different in the words God spoke to A & E
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

As for finding that comment on the net you did not answer to it did you? The question by KenH


FREE WILL do you agree or disagree?

If you disagree then respond to the quote.
"In terms of why one person chooses one way, while another person chooses another way, why do you believe that Adam & Eve (two perfectly sinless creatures) choose to misuse their freedom and fall? Why did the woman first choose to disobey, and then her husband second? They did not have total depravity. So how do you account for their free choices, apart from the same type of free-will that Arminians espouse?"

It's easy to say you disagree but give clear scripture that says we are totally depraved.

Romans 3:21-25

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

This passage includes Adam and Eve.

Are you declaring that Adam and Eve had some parts of their nature that wasn't corrupted by the fall?
Total depravity does not mean we are as evil as we can be. It means that there is no part in our nature that has not been corrupted by sin.

 

[KenH]

No problem with answering the question. I just hoped that you were smart enough to figure it out on your own but it looks like your not.Not trying to be offensive but this question has been asked and answered many many times and it just does not seem to sink in for some people.

So here is the answer, try to remember it for future reference, FREE WILL.

I found this on the net and thought it answers you quite well.
In terms of why one person chooses one way, while another person chooses another way, why do you believe that Adam & Eve (two perfectly sinless creatures) choose to misuse their freedom and fall? Why did the woman first choose to disobey, and then her husband second? They did not have total depravity. So how do you account for their free choices, apart from the same type of free-will that Arminians espouse?

Hope that helps.

Thank you. Of course, I reject your premise as even during the time of the Garden of Eden, as always before and after, God is absolutely totally sovereign.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 3:21-25

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

This passage includes Adam and Eve.

Are you declaring that Adam and Eve had some parts of their nature that wasn't corrupted by the fall?
Total depravity does not mean we are as evil as we can be. It means that there is no part in our nature that has not been corrupted by sin.

That shows that all sin but it does not say that those same people are unable to trust the gospel message. You have to read TD into the text as it is not there.

 

[KenH]

but give clear scripture that says we are totally depraved.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[Silverhair]

Thank you. Of course, I reject your premise as even during the time of the Garden of Eden, as always before and after, God is absolutely totally sovereign.

Where have I said that God is not sovereign? You have taken sovereign to mean that God determines all things and controls all our thoughts and deeds. That is not biblical but is just something you read into scripture.

You should be happy that I point out the error in your thinking, if we went with your view then God would have to be the author of sin and we know that is wrong so your view of His sovereignty is wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Those point out that man sins but they do not require that man can do nothing but sin. You TD requires that man can do nothing but sin and that is a bridge to far for you to prove.

 

[KenH]

Those point out that man sins but they do not require that man can do nothing but sin. You TD requires that man can do nothing but sin and that is a bridge to far for you to prove.

From a human viewpoint, people can certainly do good things. But regardless of how well a person does, none of his works or speech or thoughts can measure up to the perfection required to stand before God - the perfect righteousness of Christ. Thus the necessity for the imputation(or charging or crediting) of Christ's perfect righteousness to God's elect. The elect need a perfect righteousness that is not their own but that of another - Christ Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

That shows that all sin but it does not say that those same people are unable to trust the gospel message. You have to read TD into the text as it is not there.

You just changed the topic.
Before, you asked:
"Where in the bible do you see that A & E were totally depraved after the fall?"
Did Adam and Eve sin? Yes. They fell short of the glory of God.
God chose to extend grace to them. He clothed them and gave them a promise that a Redeemer would come. Then...God kicked them out of the Garden and guarded the Garden against any human effort to enter.

Adam and Eve were hiding from God. That is what unredeemed people do.
But God...
God called to them and after God's call there was a response. Before God called...there was hiding.
Adam and Eve trusted God precisely because God first called them out of hiding, clothed them, and gave them promises they could, by faith, believe.

You are perplexing in that you keep lifting up dead in sins humanity as capable of entering the Garden without God ever calling their name and drawing them out of hiding. Your view is humanistic and biblically unsupported.

 

[KenH]

You just changed the topic.
Before, you asked:
"Where in the bible do you see that A & E were totally depraved after the fall?"
Did Adam and Eve sin? Yes. They fell short of the glory of God.
God chose to extend grace to them. He clothed them and gave them a promise that a Redeemer would come. Then...God kicked them out of the Garden and guarded the Garden against any human effort to enter.

Adam and Eve were hiding from God. That is what unredeemed people do.
But God...
God called to them and after God's call there was a response. Before God called...there was hiding.
Adam and Eve trusted God precisely because God first called them out of hiding, clothed them, and gave them promises they could, by faith, believe.

You are perplexing in that you keep lifting up dead in sins humanity as capable of entering the Garden without God ever calling their name and drawing them out of hiding. Your view is humanistic and biblically unsupported.

Also, Adam and Eve covering themselves with fig leaves typifies human-based works righteousness and the shedding of the blood of the animals to cover Adam and Eve with coats of skin typifies the shedding of blood to cover sins that was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

From a human viewpoint, people can certainly do good things. But regardless of how well a person does, none of his works or speech or thoughts can measure up to the perfection required to stand before God - the perfect righteousness of Christ. Thus the necessity for the imputation(or charging or crediting) of Christ's perfect righteousness to God's elect. The elect need a perfect righteousness that is not their own but that of another - Christ Jesus.

That is your theology coming through in this comment. Still does not address the free will that man has or so called TD that your theology requires.

 

[Silverhair]

You just changed the topic.
Before, you asked:
"Where in the bible do you see that A & E were totally depraved after the fall?"
Did Adam and Eve sin? Yes. They fell short of the glory of God.
God chose to extend grace to them. He clothed them and gave them a promise that a Redeemer would come. Then...God kicked them out of the Garden and guarded the Garden against any human effort to enter.

Adam and Eve were hiding from God. That is what unredeemed people do.
But God...
God called to them and after God's call there was a response. Before God called...there was hiding.
Adam and Eve trusted God precisely because God first called them out of hiding, clothed them, and gave them promises they could, by faith, believe.

You are perplexing in that you keep lifting up dead in sins humanity as capable of entering the Garden without God ever calling their name and drawing them out of hiding. Your view is humanistic and biblically unsupported.

You just keep denying the bible text. TD is not found in the bible, you have to read it into the text. Man has a God given free will you just refuse to see it. Does man sin, YES can they trust in Christ for salvation, YES. Why do you keep denying this? Your errant theology has blinded you to the truths that are in the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Also, Adam and Eve covering themselves with fig leaves typifies human-based works righteousness and the shedding of the blood of the animals to cover Adam and Eve with coats of skin typifies the shedding of blood to cover sins that was fulfilled by Christ Jesus.

Case in point, you read way to much into the text. Your comments here do give a good indication of why you have such a problem with the bible text.

 

[Silverhair]

Still do not provide scripture that refutes free will or that supports your TD.

 

[Marooncat79]

The Bible teaches that we are in bondage to sin.

 

[KenH]

Case in point, you read way to much into the text. Your comments here do give a good indication of why you have such a problem with the bible text.

The Bible is all about Christ and His perfect righteousness. All of it. Do you disagree?

 

[Silverhair]

The Bible teaches that we are in bondage to sin.

But it does not teach TD, man has the God given ability to trust in the gospel message. Man sins I am not denying that but what you are doing is reading into the bible what is not there.

 

[AustinC]

But it does not teach TD, man has the God given ability to trust in the gospel message. Man sins I am not denying that but what you are doing is reading into the bible what is not there.

Note how you teach merited salvation. "Human ability saves" would be your mantra.

 

[Silverhair]

The Bible is all about Christ and His perfect righteousness. All of it. Do you disagree?

Why do insist on asking silly questions? Have you not understood what I have posted?