A Dispensationalist View of Calvinism

[JD731]

Hmmm.... Really?! I'm an unbeliever because I don't agree with your schlock? Really?!

The gospel I preach is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. You have made a false assumption about my "gospel" and my faith. You've turned to the ad hominem probably because your points have been shown to be wrong. Rather than learn, you lash-out. In the end, this is not an issue of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. The issue here is your ability--or lack thereof--to properly handle the word of God with any hermeneutical acumen.

The Archangel

None of these "alones" are biblical. I am sure they make great sound bites in your world, but they simple aren't true.

The bible we believe as Christians is not the words of Christ, they are the words of God. He wrote the record of his son. Even the words that Jesus spoke were not his words but the Father gave him the words. I am not guessing about that. I have his words on it.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

The way to the Father is through the son, but it is the way to the Father. He is the judge of all the earth. It is he who justifies. It is he who condemns. Jesus Christ, through his death and resurrection has reconciled the Father to us sinners by enduring the wrath of the guilty so we can go free. Now, the sinner must be reconciled to the Father and this is available for every sinner who will go to him in the name of Jesus Christ and through faith in what he has done for us. The Father will turn none away who comes this way because there is no sin to impute to them because Jesus has taken away the sin of the world by enduring God's righteous wrath against it in his own body on the tree. <2889>

Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but by me.

This means sinners must get to the Father.
You speak of hermeneutical acumen while promoting doctrines that cannot be found in the scriptures.

 

[The Archangel]

None of these "alones" are biblical. I am sure they make great sound bites in your world, but they simple aren't true.

So, salvation is not by grace alone?

Salvation is not by faith alone?

Salvation is not by Christ alone?

Salvation is not to the glory of God alone?

The alternatives here are staggeringly bad. You are essentially arguing that salvation is by grace + something; faith + something; Christ + something. Are you really making that argument?

The bible we believe as Christians is not the words of Christ, they are the words of God. He wrote the record of his son. Even the words that Jesus spoke were not his words but the Father gave him the words. I am not guessing about that. I have his words on it.

The way to the Father is through the son, but it is the way to the Father. He is the judge of all the earth. It is he who justifies. It is he who condemns. Jesus Christ, through his death and resurrection has reconciled the Father to us sinners by enduring the wrath of the guilty so we can go free. Now, the sinner must be reconciled to the Father and this is available for every sinner who will go to him in the name of Jesus Christ and through faith in what he has done for us. The Father will turn none away who comes this way because there is no sin to impute to them because Jesus has taken away the sin of the world by enduring God's righteous wrath against it in his own body on the tree. <2889>

Jesus says , I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the Father but by me.

This means sinners must get to the Father.
You speak of hermeneutical acumen while promoting doctrines that cannot be found in the scriptures.

I'm not really sure how what you've written above supports your no "solas" (alones) position.

The Father and the Son are both the one-true-and-living God; there is no divergence of views or opinion in them. But, the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Scripture. It isn't as if the hand of God came down and wrote on the parchment itself. So, you argument does not follow.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

No comment offered at this time.



That intelligence, reason, and will is fallen, as is everyone's. Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. In Genesis 6, we are told the thoughts and intents of man's heart are "only evil continually." The fall affects everything--intellect, emotion, etc.--all of it.



Except you seem to have been arguing that salvation comes as a result of your belief.



Salvation requires belief. Romans 10 is quite clear about that. But, every person alive today is affected by the Fall and their hearts desire only evil continually, too.

This is exactly why Jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again." Again, with the verb being in the passive, something must be done to Nicodemus in order that he believe.

The Archangel

This whole response is pumping your religious philosophy. You have proved nothing nor have you attempted to. I could just as easily apply Jer 17:9 to Calvinists and say their hearts have deceived them into thinking they are of the 1% elect because it is desperately sick, but thankfully their is a context to this statement and I am not going to use it out of context against you. In Ge 6, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because God looks on the heart. In Noah he found a heart for the things of God and in chapter 11 of Hebrews we are told he believed God and the evidence for his faith was that big ark. Those others whose thoughts and intents of the hearts caused them to get drenched in the flood, was because they did not repent and get on the boat while the door was open.

 

[JD731]

So, salvation is not by grace alone?

Salvation is not by faith alone?

Salvation is not by Christ alone?

Salvation is not to the glory of God alone?

The alternatives here are staggeringly bad. You are essentially arguing that salvation is by grace + something; faith + something; Christ + something. Are you really making that argument?



I'm not really sure how what you've written above supports your no "solas" (alones) position.

The Father and the Son are both the one-true-and-living God; there is no divergence of views or opinion in them. But, the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Scripture. It isn't as if the hand of God came down and wrote on the parchment itself. So, you argument does not follow.

The Archangel

I am not defending an open air doctrine that you cannot even articulate. Show the scriptures saying it and we will go from there.

 

[JD731]

At root, the definition of "gospel" is "Good news."

Frankly, that any would be saved is good news since God is under no obligation to save anyone.

The Archangel

God is under obligation to save Israel according to the Abrahamic covenant and all who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ, because he said he would bless the whole word and all nations through the seed of Abraham, who is Jesus Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

God is under obligation to save Israel according to the Abrahamic covenant and all who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ, because he said he would bless the whole word and all nations through the seed of Abraham, who is Jesus Christ.

Yes... But that is an obligation He took upon Himself in Genesis 15. That God revealed Himself to Abraham (at that point an idol worshiper) and took covenant obligations upon Himself is an act of sheer grace. He was in no way obligated to enter into that relationship.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

I am not defending an open air doctrine that you cannot even articulate. Show the scriptures saying it and we will go from there.

Cop-out.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

This whole response is pumping your religious philosophy. You have proved nothing nor have you attempted to. I could just as easily apply Jer 17:9 to Calvinists and say their hearts have deceived them into thinking they are of the 1% elect because it is desperately sick, but thankfully their is a context to this statement and I am not going to use it out of context against you. In Ge 6, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because God looks on the heart. In Noah he found a heart for the things of God and in chapter 11 of Hebrews we are told he believed God and the evidence for his faith was that big ark. Those others whose thoughts and intents of the hearts caused them to get drenched in the flood, was because they did not repent and get on the boat while the door was open.

The point is that Jeremiah and Genesis 6 apply to everyone. Therefore, your self-acclaimed intellect, reason, and will is fallen and without the intervention of God no one will believe.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

The big 'I' is where all you free-willers are wrong, and I'll tell you what I don't believe - just because your theology reeks with the flesh doesn't necessarily mean you're the spawn of the devil as you accused half the membership of this board, as noted in post #13.

I am not sure what this means and how this makes you more righteous than me. Can you explain? You have two "I's" in your sentence about yourself.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning - this thread will be closed no sooner than 10 pm EDT / 7 pm PDT

 

[JD731]

Thank all those who have participated in my thread. My main point was to demonstrate how those of us who take a dispensational view of the scriptures are very careful to allow the words in the scriptures to mean what they actually say. I think lessons like this are especially helpful for Calvinists who generally take a more philosophical approach, and who claim they mine their doctrines with more of a figurative and spiritualized concept and therefore with individual passages and words not being as important to their system.

I do not apologize for the truth I told but I do want to speak the truth in love. If anyone were offended by my tone, I do apologize for that.

It has been a blessing and I have learned things in the last few days. May the Lord be honored and glorified by all we do and say. Amen!

 

[kyredneck]

I am not sure what this means and how this makes you more righteous than me. Can you explain? You have two "I's" in your sentence about yourself.

The big "I". that's what you free-willers are all about.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The big 'I'. 'I' put myself in Christ Jesus because of MY choice, MY will, My faith. A man centered doctrine it is. If you browse around looking at other's salvation statements of the Free Will/Synergistic persuasion, it's quite common to read statements that begin with or along the lines of, “I have placed my faith in...”, or, “Because I trusted....”, or, “I've accepted...”, or, “Because I believe...” or “Personal faith in...”, or, “I can do...” etc., it's plain to see that the Free Will/Synergistic believe that they had something to do with it. The big “I” is ever present in their statements.

OTOH, salvation statements of the Sovereign Grace/Reformed/Calvinist/Monergistic persuasion read like this:

“I don't think I am. I know through the Son of God, and He saving me from my sin.”

“Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of my faith. Baruch haba b\'shem!”

“Saved by grace, Reformed”

“Let every spirit praise Him, Ps. 150:6”

“Because of the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross”

“Only by the covering of the blood of Jesus.”

“Solely on the merits of the righteousness of Jesus Christ applied by the Holy Spirit according to unconditional election”

“B/c of God's plan of salvation included me in the electing process! Thank you Jesus for your Sacrifice!”

“My God is all in all and I Worship Him. Gods Only Son, Saved me from sin.”

So, from these salvation statements of those that hold to Sovereign Grace it can be seen that they believe that they had nothing to do with it. The big “I” is generally absent in their statements.

 

[The Archangel]

Thank all those who have participated in my thread. My main point was to demonstrate how those of us who take a dispensational view of the scriptures are very careful to allow the words in the scriptures to mean what they actually say.

Then your main point was not realized. I, and others, have shown proper what some of the words actually said and what they actually mean. You simply ignored us in favor of your own apriori thoughts

I think lessons like this are especially helpful for Calvinists who generally take a more philosophical approach, and who claim they mine their doctrines with more of a figurative and spiritualized concept and therefore with individual passages and words not being as important to their system.

We do not take a philosophical approach. Nothing of what you've said here is even remotely accurate.

I do not apologize for the truth I told but I do want to speak the truth in love. If anyone were offended by my tone, I do apologize for that.

So, you're OK that you called all of us who are Calvinists unbelievers?!

It has been a blessing and I have learned things in the last few days. May the Lord be honored and glorified by all we do and say. Amen!

You, obviously, have learned nothing. And, how is God honored and glorified by you calling us non-believers? Really.... I'd like to know.

The Archangel

 

[37818]

. . . put myself in Christ Jesus because of MY choice, MY will, My faith.

No one can put one's self in Christ Jesus. Unless God does it. So one can believe until . . . and not be born from God. John 1:12-13, Titus 1:2, 1 John 5:9-13.

 

[kyredneck]

So, you're OK that you called all of us who are Calvinists unbelievers?!

He unapologetically referred to us [Monergists] as tares, children of the devil:

38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. Mt 13

This is the sort of bigotry that presents a horrible image of Christianity to outsiders.

 

[JD731]

The big "I". that's what you free-willers are all about.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The big 'I'. 'I' put myself in Christ Jesus because of MY choice, MY will, My faith. A man centered doctrine it is. If you browse around looking at other's salvation statements of the Free Will/Synergistic persuasion, it's quite common to read statements that begin with or along the lines of, “I have placed my faith in...”, or, “Because I trusted....”, or, “I've accepted...”, or, “Because I believe...” or “Personal faith in...”, or, “I can do...” etc., it's plain to see that the Free Will/Synergistic believe that they had something to do with it. The big “I” is ever present in their statements.

OTOH, salvation statements of the Sovereign Grace/Reformed/Calvinist/Monergistic persuasion read like this:

“I don't think I am. I know through the Son of God, and He saving me from my sin.”

“Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of my faith. Baruch haba b\'shem!”

“Saved by grace, Reformed”

“Let every spirit praise Him, Ps. 150:6”

“Because of the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross”

“Only by the covering of the blood of Jesus.”

“Solely on the merits of the righteousness of Jesus Christ applied by the Holy Spirit according to unconditional election”

“B/c of God's plan of salvation included me in the electing process! Thank you Jesus for your Sacrifice!”

“My God is all in all and I Worship Him. Gods Only Son, Saved me from sin.”

So, from these salvation statements of those that hold to Sovereign Grace it can be seen that they believe that they had nothing to do with it. The big “I” is generally absent in their statements.

If you stood before God when you die, right outside the gate, and God asked you why he should let you into his heaven and you said, well it is not because I believed anything, you would be turned away and would not be allowed entrance. Your statement is self righteousness. Have you never read what God requires of the sinner? He requires the sinner to hear the gospel and to believe it. Without faith it is impossible to please God, his statement, not mine. I recommend you certainly reevaluate if you think Jesus is believing for you.
You folks put up incredibly bad ideas and one wonders, where is the disconnect?

 

[JD731]

Then your main point was not realized. I, and others, have shown proper what some of the words actually said and what they actually mean. You simply ignored us in favor of your own apriori thoughts



We do not take a philosophical approach. Nothing of what you've said here is even remotely accurate.



So, you're OK that you called all of us who are Calvinists unbelievers?!



You, obviously, have learned nothing. And, how is God honored and glorified by you calling us non-believers? Really.... I'd like to know.

The Archangel

I said that I appreciate the discussion but I did not apologize for telling the truth.

You, obviously, have learned nothing. And, how is God honored and glorified by you calling us non-believers? Really.... I'd like to know.

Look what KY Redneck said in post "152. He posted 8 or ten statements of sovereign salvation that you folks push and the word believe did not show up. I wonder which one is yours.

So, from these salvation statements of those that hold to Sovereign Grace it can be seen that they believe that they had nothing to do with it. The big “I” is generally absent in their statements.

I can read and he is saying he did not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to get saved. He didn't do anything.

Is that your testimony Aa?

 

[The Archangel]

I said that I appreciate the discussion but I did not apologize for telling the truth.



Look what KY Redneck said in post "152. He posted 8 or ten statements of sovereign salvation that you folks push and the word believe did not show up. I wonder which one is yours.



I can read and he is saying he did not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to get saved. He didn't do anything.

Is that your testimony Aa?

Why would you think KY Redneck speaks for me? Why would you reference his thoughts instead of dealing with what I said? Red Herring much?

Have you not read that I say belief is necessary based on Romans 10??

The Archangel


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[The Archangel]

If you stood before God when you die, right outside the gate, and God asked you why he should let you into his heaven and you said, well it is not because I believed anything, you would be turned away and would not be allowed entrance. Your statement is self righteousness. Have you never read what God requires of the sinner? He requires the sinner to hear the gospel and to believe it. Without faith it is impossible to please God, his statement, not mine. I recommend you certainly reevaluate if you think Jesus is believing for you.
You folks put up incredibly bad ideas and one wonders, where is the disconnect?

If God asked you why He should allow you into heaven and you answered “because I believed in Jesus,” you would be just as wrong as someone who would say “it’s not because I believe anything.”

The proper answer to that question is “ You shouldn’t!!” My only hope in this life and the next is that Jesus lived the life I could not—in my sinfulness—live, died the death I owed to God for my sinful rebellion against Him, and was raised again for my Justification. That’s it. That is my only hope.

My hope is not in my belief in Christ; my hope is in Christ alone—that He is my substitute, being everything I never could be.

The Archangel


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[Salty]

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