Featured Where did the Wrath of God go? Part 3

[JonC]

No, what he did was legal as he was given authority. He brought them to the authorities. Not sure why that needs explaining.



irrelevant

No. We are talking about divine justice. That you believe Paul was in the right to contribute to the murder of Stephen is a bit off.

Abortion is legal. Doctors have the authority to perform abortions. That does not mean it is less than murder.

Why assign your idea of secular justice to God?

To address your question:

Say an 18 year old man kills another and gets away with it. Years go by. God works in the life of this man. The man grows, changes, marries, has children and then grand children. He becomes a pillar of the community. As a great grand father he is finally caught and tried for murder.

Your justice is the man should face the death penalty. That would be secular justice. But is it justice? That is debatable. Yet you assign to God your philosophy of justice without defending your decision. Scripture tells us that God forgives based on repentance (true repentance). This is above your idea of justice.

 

[JesusFan]

No. We are talking about divine justice. That you believe Paul was in the right to contribute to the murder of Stephen is a bit off.

Abortion is legal. Doctors have the authority to perform abortions. That does not mean it is less than murder.

Why assign your idea of secular justice to God?

To address your question:

Say an 18 year old man kills another and gets away with it. Years go by. God works in the life of this man. The man grows, changes, marries, has children and then grand children. He becomes a pillar of the community. As a great grand father he is finally caught and tried for murder.

Your justice is the man should face the death penalty. That would be secular justice. But is it justice? That is debatable. Yet you assign to God your philosophy of justice without defending your decision. Scripture tells us that God forgives based on repentance (true repentance). This is above your idea of justice.

The law states that first degree murder requires someone to die to atone for that sin, so how can the Judge just declare guilty party free and cleared in case none took the due penalty?

 

[Revmitchell]

No. We are talking about divine justice. That you believe Paul was in the right to contribute to the murder of Stephen is a bit off.

Abortion is legal. Doctors have the authority to perform abortions. That does not mean it is less than murder.

Why assign your idea of secular justice to God?

To address your question:

Say an 18 year old man kills another and gets away with it. Years go by. God works in the life of this man. The man grows, changes, marries, has children and then grand children. He becomes a pillar of the community. As a great grand father he is finally caught and tried for murder.

Your justice is the man should face the death penalty. That would be secular justice. But is it justice? That is debatable. Yet you assign to God your philosophy of justice without defending your decision. Scripture tells us that God forgives based on repentance (true repentance). This is above your idea of justice.

You failed to actually address my post. When you do I will respond

 

[JonC]

You failed to actually address my post. When you do I will respond

You say " No, what he did was legal as he was given authority. He brought them to the authorities. Not sure why that needs explaining."

Performing abortions is legal. Doctors have that authority. You are wrong to equate legality and authority with justice.

Not sure why that needs explaining.

Why do you believe that crimes be punished for justice to be served?

What is the reason for punishment?

Going back to divine justice, why must God punish sins to forgive sins?

 

[Revmitchell]

You say " No, what he did was legal as he was given authority. He brought them to the authorities. Not sure why that needs explaining."

Performing abortions is legal. Doctors have that authority. You are wrong to equate legality and authority with justice.

Not sure why that needs explaining.

Why do you believe that crimes be punished for justice to be served?

What is the reason for punishment?

Going back to divine justice, why must God punish sins to forgive sins?

I don't have the patience to sort out your spaghetti of thoughts there. Good grief.

Because of His attribute of justice. Denying that God must punish sins is very serious. The sacrifices in the OT point to it. The death on the cross of Jesus points to it. Again not sure why that needs explaining.

 

[JonC]

I don't have the patience to sort out your spaghetti of thoughts there. Good grief.

Because of His attribute of justice. Denying that God must punish sins is very serious. The sacrifices in the OT point to it. The death on the cross of Jesus points to it. Again not sure why that needs explaining.

God will punish the wicked. That is not in dispute.

But the idea that God cannot forgive sins without punishing sins is unbilical.

Where do you get the idea that God must punish to forgive?

 

[JonC]

The law states that first degree murder requires someone to die to atone for that sin, so how can the Judge just declare guilty party free and cleared in case none took the due penalty?

No, it does not. The law (and God's law) does not state that someone must die. Justice does not allow for one person to take the penality for another.

The next time a murder is convicted go to the court and tell the judge you will serve the sentence instead of the criminal. He will not allow it, even if you and the murderer are fine with it. Why? Because that would not be justice.

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree that God does not make mistakes. He will not punish the just to forgive the unjust.

No indeed. It is God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ who Himslf has satisfied His own justice.
'By no means clearing the guilty.'

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, it does not. The law (and God's law) does not state that someone must die. Justice does not allow for one person to take the penality for another.

The next time a murder is convicted go to the court and tell the judge you will serve the sentence instead of the criminal. He will not allow it, even if you and the murderer are fine with it. Why? Because that would not be justice.

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

You need to understand what it means that Jesus Christ is the Surety of the New covenant.

 

[JonC]

You need to understand what it means that Jesus Christ is the Surety of the New covenant.

I do understand what it means.

ἔγγυος means "guarantee".

Hebrews 7:22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I do understand what it means.

ἔγγυος means "guarantee".

Hebrews 7:22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

I didn't ask whether you could look up the word in a lexicon; I asked if you knew what it means that He is a surety, the personal guarantee of the terms of the new and better covenant.

 

[JonC]

I didn't ask whether you could look up the word in a lexicon; I asked if you knew what it means that He is a surety, the personal guarantee of the terms of the new and better covenant.

Yes, I know what it means (I did not need to look that one up). Do you?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I didn't ask whether you could look up the word in a lexicon; I asked if you knew what it means that He is a surety, the personal guarantee of the terms of the new and better covenant. It appears you don't.

 

[JonC]

I didn't ask whether you could look up the word in a lexicon; I asked if you knew what it means that He is a surety, the personal guarantee of the terms of the new and better covenant. It appears you don't.

And I told you that I do not have to look up the word because I know exactly what it means that Christ is the ἔγγυος of the new and better covenant.

What part of my answer do you not understand?

 

[JesusFan]

No, it does not. The law (and God's law) does not state that someone must die. Justice does not allow for one person to take the penality for another.

The next time a murder is convicted go to the court and tell the judge you will serve the sentence instead of the criminal. He will not allow it, even if you and the murderer are fine with it. Why? Because that would not be justice.

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

Ezekiel passage refers just to capital punishment for capital crimes, and has nothing to do with the application from there to making it wrong to have God the father judge Jesus for our imputed sins upon himself in our stead!

 

[JesusFan]

No indeed. It is God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ who Himslf has satisfied His own justice.
'By no means clearing the guilty.'

Indeed, 2 Corinthians 5;19

 

[JesusFan]

No. We are talking about divine justice. That you believe Paul was in the right to contribute to the murder of Stephen is a bit off.

Abortion is legal. Doctors have the authority to perform abortions. That does not mean it is less than murder.

Why assign your idea of secular justice to God?

To address your question:

Say an 18 year old man kills another and gets away with it. Years go by. God works in the life of this man. The man grows, changes, marries, has children and then grand children. He becomes a pillar of the community. As a great grand father he is finally caught and tried for murder.

Your justice is the man should face the death penalty. That would be secular justice. But is it justice? That is debatable. Yet you assign to God your philosophy of justice without defending your decision. Scripture tells us that God forgives based on repentance (true repentance). This is above your idea of justice.

On what basis can God freely justify and saved any sinner, is that due to just them repenting of sins and asking to be saved then. period?

 

[JonC]

Ezekiel passage refers just to capital punishment for capital crimes, and has nothing to do with the application from there to making it wrong to have God the father judge Jesus for our imputed sins upon himself in our stead!

So you would say Paul should have been executed, correct?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And I told you that I do not have to look up the word because I know exactly what it means that Christ is the ἔγγυος of the new and better covenant.

What part of my answer do you not understand?

I understand your answer. I understand that you know the meaning of ἔγγυος. I doubt that you know the significance of that. If you do, you have been mighty reluctant to tell us.

 

[JonC]

I understand your answer. I understand that you know the meaning of ἔγγυος. I doubt that you know the significance of that. If you do, you have been mighty reluctant to tell us.

You do not understand the significance of Christ being the guarantee of the New Covenant? I think that is pretty much self-explanatory. The covenant is written in His blood, it is the work of His obedience.

If you do not understand that then you cannot understand the Cross.

Read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22.