Is the NPP about Paul believing the traditions of the Pharisees were correct, rather than incorrect? Nope Paul clearly taught Jews were not saved by their blood line, being descendants of Abraham, but by being believers, thus only believing Jews were of the Promise.
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The New Perspective on Paul
- Thread starter JonC
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The passage says “those He foreknew”. It says God “knew” them in a relationship, not that God knew something about them.
Context is clear though I understand you believe context is “magical” and should therefore be ignored in favor of rearranging words and phrases and misquoting passages to support the meaning you are looking for.
peace to you
I am sorry, but you seem to have never studied how the word is actually used. Next to hurl false charges, like a sand box bully.
I am familiar with the Calvinist false claim the idea of "knew" refers to an intimate relationship. The claim is hogwash. It is a pathetic effort to pour Calvinist falsehood into the text.
You use "context" to magically alter the statement to something other than what it says. It is an idiotic ploy.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
“Those He (God) foreknew”. Not “the things He (God) knew about them”
Pretty simple to understand if you don’t bring anti-reformed biased to scripture.
Additionally, context is key (not magical) to understanding scripture. That is why when you only partially quote a verse, rearranging the words and phrases to produce the desired meaning to fit your beliefs you make that interpretation a falsehood and worse.
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you
verysingh45
New Member
The issue is not what a work is, but whether faith (our credited by God faith) provides our access to God's grace. You claim Romans 5:1-2 does not say it does.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’m saying the “grace” referred to in Romans 5:2 is not saving grace, but “enabling grace” which is God’s enabling power by indwelling Holy Spirit to endure persecution for the cause of Christ. Enabling grace is given to believers after salvation.
This is clear from the context. In the very next verse, Paul says they “glory in tribulation”.
peace to you
Did I say foreknew cannot refer to people? Nope. So this post addresses a strawman argument.
Does "knew" always refer to an intimate relationship? Nope. That is what I said. To know something beforehand includes knowledge of people, corporately or individually.
What does "those He foreknew" actually mean?
Romans 8:28-29
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;
Thus the phrase refers to those who are called according to His purpose. So the phrase refers to God's knowledge of those who would be called during the age of grace, hence His plan of redemption. And His redemption plan was not only to redeem believers in Christ but also to predestine those redeemed to be conformed to the image of His Son.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Those He “foreknew” He predestined.
The word “predestined” means to mark out or separate beforehand. It is a construction term referring to marking property and preparing it for building.
In this case, individuals were separated from other, before the foundation of the world. God “knew” them in a relationship even then. They were marked by God to be conformed to the image of Hid Sin.
It is specific predestination of individuals prior to belief, not general predestination of those who would believe.
We will not agree
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you
Around and around we go. I address foreknew, and the response addresses predestined.
Those He foreknew - Thus the phrase refers to those who are called according to His purpose. So the phrase refers to God's knowledge of those who would be called during the age of grace, hence His plan of redemption. And His redemption plan was not only to redeem believers in Christ but also to predestine those redeemed to be conformed to the image of His Son.
Will my actual position be addressed? Go figure...
Foreknowledge there ties into God election and predestination, as he caused those who were saved by those!
Let us start with the Old Perspective on Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, and nothing else contributes to being chosen for salvation. Thus the OPP is Sola Fide (Faith Alone).
So does the NPP teach we will or do something (other than put our faith in Christ) to be saved, transferred from being in Adam, to being placed within Christ's spiritual body? Nope.
So the actual idea (actually many ideas) focuses on what part "works" (things the born anew believer does after salvation) plays in sustaining or enhancing their salvation. Some of the posting Calvinists on this board seem to be unfamiliar with how post salvation good works contributes or enhances the blessings of our salvation. They ask questions like what additional rewards are received because of engaging in effective ministry. I kid you not. They seem unfamiliar with the glory of serving Christ.
Are we justified by Christ's faithfulness or our credited faith in Christ?
Apparently no one is able or willing to answer this rather simple Christianity 101 question. The answer is we were justified by Christ's faithfulness, in living a sinless life and laying down His life as a ransom for humanity. So we were not justified by our credited faith, as that would mean salvation depended on us. But scripture says if God credits our faith, as He did Abraham's faith, He bestows His grace upon those credited. Thus we access God's grace through or by way of faith. Romans 5:1-2.
Thus the NPP is the same as the old, Paul rejected works based justification, saying no flesh is justified by works, but did teach we obtain access to God's grace through or by way of God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Galatians 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
So does the NPP teach we will or do something (other than put our faith in Christ) to be saved, transferred from being in Adam, to being placed within Christ's spiritual body? Nope.
So the actual idea (actually many ideas) focuses on what part "works" (things the born anew believer does after salvation) plays in sustaining or enhancing their salvation. Some of the posting Calvinists on this board seem to be unfamiliar with how post salvation good works contributes or enhances the blessings of our salvation. They ask questions like what additional rewards are received because of engaging in effective ministry. I kid you not. They seem unfamiliar with the glory of serving Christ.
Are we justified by Christ's faithfulness or our credited faith in Christ?
Apparently no one is able or willing to answer this rather simple Christianity 101 question. The answer is we were justified by Christ's faithfulness, in living a sinless life and laying down His life as a ransom for humanity. So we were not justified by our credited faith, as that would mean salvation depended on us. But scripture says if God credits our faith, as He did Abraham's faith, He bestows His grace upon those credited. Thus we access God's grace through or by way of faith. Romans 5:1-2.
Thus the NPP is the same as the old, Paul rejected works based justification, saying no flesh is justified by works, but did teach we obtain access to God's grace through or by way of God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Galatians 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Some people deny our faith when and if credited by God provides our access to God's grace, which is taught in Romans 5:1-2:
Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God's glory.
The bible means what it says.
Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God's glory.
The bible means what it says.
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