Acts 2:47 – The Bible vs Human Theology

[AustinC]

I am not adding the word JEW. Read the text.

We can see that verses 3-12 are written from the point of view of the chosen nation, the Jews. Paul uses "us, we" throughout those verses. The promises were made to the Jews or do you not read the OT. Paul changes to "you" in verse 13 and then to "our" in verse 14. I removed those words that seem to be so confusing for you. Here is the key "us, we" the Jews, "you" the Greeks & "our" both Jews and Greeks. Hope that helps.

"Here we see that all the blessings that were available to the Jews are now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus."

Take the time to read the verses without the glasses. Paul is quite clear if you will just read the text. I know it is hard for you to accept anything other than Calvinism but that is the way it is my friend.

Do what I did, just color code the words relating to God the Father, Christ, Holy Spirit, us/we, you, our. for verse 3-14. What does verse 12 tell us "that we who first trusted in Christ". Were the Ephesians the first to trust in Christ Jesus, NO. Paul wrote the letter in approx. 60 A D to a church he established in approx. 50 A D. The first to trust in Christ Jesus were the JEWS which is who the blessings of God came through. These blessings were now available to the Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus.

I showed you verse one. The us and we are Paul and the church at Ephesians. That's who is reading the letter. They are the "us" in the chapter. Where is the "Jew" in the passage?
Silverhair, thank you for this exercise because it shows us that you do exactly what we all do when we read scripture. We observe what is there and then we interpret it, not only by what is in the passage, but also by all the rest of scripture that helps inform our interpretation. Here, you are bringing in ideas from elsewhere and are adding them to the text. It is the very thing you have accused others of doing while you claimed you, yourself, didn't do such a thing.

The evidence is here that you do, indeed, add things into the text in your interpretation.

 

[Silverhair]

I showed you verse one. The us and we are Paul and the church at Ephesians. That's who is reading the letter. They are the "us" in the chapter. Where is the "Jew" in the passage?
Silverhair, thank you for this exercise because it shows us that you do exactly what we all do when we read scripture. We observe what is there and then we interpret it, not only by what is in the passage, but also by all the rest of scripture that helps inform our interpretation. Here, you are bringing in ideas from elsewhere and are adding them to the text. It is the very thing you have accused others of doing while you claimed you, yourself, didn't do such a thing.

The evidence is here that you do, indeed, add things into the text in your interpretation.

Austin I have said I read and trust what the bible says, is that not what I did? I have said that context is what matters and the context can be a few verses, a chapter, book or the whole bible. Show me where I have said otherwise.
Actually I did not have to bring ideas into the text as the information is all there in those verses. What one should not do is take various verses out of context in the attempt to support a view which I have seen a number of people on here do.

Did you do as I suggested with those verses? Do you still disagree and if so why?

 

[AustinC]

Austin I have said I read and trust what the bible says, is that not what I did? I have said that context is what matters and the context can be a few verses, a chapter, book or the whole bible. Show me where I have said otherwise.
Actually I did not have to bring ideas into the text as the information is all there in those verses. What one should not do is take various verses out of context in the attempt to support a view which I have seen a number of people on here do.

Did you do as I suggested with those verses? Do you still disagree and if so why?

No, that is not what you did. You added Jews to the passage and removed Gentiles. Yet the context is to all the believers "us."

Now, the point is...you do exactly what you accuse others of doing and you showed it in your interpretation of the passage. You drew from a different source in your mind and you added that information to the text in order to fit your bigger narrative of human choice superceding God in salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

No, that is not what you did. You added Jews to the passage and removed Gentiles. Yet the context is to all the believers "us."

Now, the point is...you do exactly what you accuse others of doing and you showed it in your interpretation of the passage. You drew from a different source in your mind and you added that information to the text in order to fit your bigger narrative of human choice superceding God in salvation.

To your second point. Have you not read any of my other posts? I will use various verses to support what I am saying. That is bible study. The bible is not a book of one liners, as some seem to treat it.

Did you do as I suggested or are you so stuck in your theological box that you refuse to look outside of it? Actually the Eph 3-14 text is quite clear once you get past your bias. I can understand why you do not like what I wrote as it throws a wrench into your theology, but your theology is to be informed by the bible not the bible informed by your theology.

By the by I did not remove the Greeks and insert the Jews. Paul is just informing the Ephesians how the blessing they enjoy came to them via the Jews and how non-believers can come to enjoy those same blessings. Read Gen 22:15-18 what or whom do you think that is referring to?

 

[AustinC]

To your second point. Have you not read any of my other posts? I will use various verses to support what I am saying. That is bible study. The bible is not a book of one liners, as some seem to treat it.

Did you do as I suggested or are you so stuck in your theological box that you refuse to look outside of it? Actually the Eph 3-14 text is quite clear once you get past your bias. I can understand why you do not like what I wrote as it throws a wrench into your theology, but your theology is to be informed by the bible not the bible informed by your theology.

By the by I did not remove the Greeks and insert the Jews. Paul is just informing the Ephesians how the blessing they enjoy came to them via the Jews and how non-believers can come to enjoy those same blessings. Read Gen 22:15-18 what or whom do you think that is referring to?

Of course you cherrypick verses in an imagined thought that they support your narrative. Nearly always you pick verses and apply them out of context. Ephesians 1:13 is a perfect example of this. You prove it by your added comments to the passage (Ephesians 1:3-14).

What you do is not Bible Study. It's Bible Twisting as your real agenda is your false narrative that comes from your philosophy of man's free will.

The blessings we enjoy come from God and are shown to us in the Covenants God has made with His chosen people.
We are the chosen people. The Abrahamic Covenant is for us. You and me. It is not just for the nation of Israel. It is for the people of the Promise. Paul connects this in Romans.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course you cherrypick verses in an imagined thought that they support your narrative. Nearly always you pick verses and apply them out of context. Ephesians 1:13 is a perfect example of this. You prove it by your added comments to the passage (Ephesians 1:3-14).

What you do is not Bible Study. It's Bible Twisting as your real agenda is your false narrative that comes from your philosophy of man's free will.

The blessings we enjoy come from God and are shown to us in the Covenants God has made with His chosen people.
We are the chosen people. The Abrahamic Covenant is for us. You and me. It is not just for the nation of Israel. It is for the people of the Promise. Paul connects this in Romans.

Just because I do not quote large swaths of text as you do does not mean that I cherrypick verses. I have asked you to show me where the verses that I quote do not fit with my comments or with the context they are found in, you have not done that.
When I have quoted Eph 1:13 did or did it not fit with the other verses I quoted and with the comments I made? Did the scriptures that I quoted support what I said or not, that is the question. Your normal response is, no do not agree, but nothing beyond that.
Did you actually take of the glasses and look at the text of Eph 1:3-14, I doubt that you did.

Just because you do not understand free will does not mean that it is not in the bible or that God does not require us to exercise that free will in regard to our salvation.

I agree that the blessings that we enjoy form God have come to us through His chosen people, the Jews. But the term "chosen people,” which used to apply only to Israel, is now used of both Jewish and Gentile believers and that is what the Paul is pointing out in Eph. You are missing the forest for the trees.
Paul is telling the Ephesians that the same blessings that came through the Jews are now available to both Jews & Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus. How do you miss this. Are we the chosen people, YES. We are the chosen people through faith just as Abraham. Rom_4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

 

[AustinC]

Just because I do not quote large swaths of text as you do does not mean that I cherrypick verses. I have asked you to show me where the verses that I quote do not fit with my comments or with the context they are found in, you have not done that.
When I have quoted Eph 1:13 did or did it not fit with the other verses I quoted and with the comments I made? Did the scriptures that I quoted support what I said or not, that is the question. Your normal response is, no do not agree, but nothing beyond that.
Did you actually take of the glasses and look at the text of Eph 1:3-14, I doubt that you did.

Just because you do not understand free will does not mean that it is not in the bible or that God does not require us to exercise that free will in regard to our salvation.

I agree that the blessings that we enjoy form God have come to us through His chosen people, the Jews. But the term "chosen people,” which used to apply only to Israel, is now used of both Jewish and Gentile believers and that is what the Paul is pointing out in Eph. You are missing the forest for the trees.
Paul is telling the Ephesians that the same blessings that came through the Jews are now available to both Jews & Greeks through faith in Christ Jesus. How do you miss this. Are we the chosen people, YES. We are the chosen people through faith just as Abraham. Rom_4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

I understand free will quite well. I held it for nearly 30 years. This was because I was raised with the doctrine. I even argued against it against Reformed believers when I was young.
Thankfully I kept reading my Bible and saw the massive contradiction I was living with. I kept reading and kept seeing God telling me that I was chosen. How do you think I ended up with a 6 page document of verses showing me that God has always been the chooser and humans have been the choosees. It's because I read my Bible and not my church doctrinal statements that I let go of free will thinking and embraced Reformed thinking.

 

[37818]

I understand free will quite well. I held it for nearly 30 years. This was because I was raised with the doctrine. I even argued against it against Reformed believers when I was young.
Thankfully I kept reading my Bible and saw the massive contradiction I was living with. I kept reading and kept seeing God telling me that I was chosen. How do you think I ended up with a 6 page document of verses showing me that God has always been the chooser and humans have been the choosees. It's because I read my Bible and not my church doctrinal statements that I let go of free will thinking and embraced Reformed thinking.

What was the first thing that changed your mind? And why? We both know the word of God did not change.

 

[AustinC]

What was the first thing that changed your mind? And why? We both know the word of God did not change.

Indeed God's word never changed. What changed was I stopped relying on the words of men to do the work of Bible study for me. I dug in to God's word on my own. I made observations and I asked questions. I kept observing God choosing. I did a word study of the word "chose" and it's variants. I was amazed at how many times I saw God being the leader in choosing sinful men by grace alone. I kept trying to explain away this truth and devise ways where I shared God's glory as a co-operator with God. I had it down to the only sin being unbelief, which must have been the unforgivable sin that kept humans from salvation. Then I realized I was still cheapening God's power by holding such a view. I had to admit that God does it all and I do nothing to save myself. Anything other than that would make me a saver of myself and God just a happy bystander cheering me on.

So, God's word changed me, as it always does.

 

[37818]

@AustinC,

I think there is a common issue of some professing Christian trusting in what they did as oppossed to trust in the the finished work of Christ alone.

 

[Silverhair]

I understand free will quite well. I held it for nearly 30 years. This was because I was raised with the doctrine. I even argued against it against Reformed believers when I was young.
Thankfully I kept reading my Bible and saw the massive contradiction I was living with. I kept reading and kept seeing God telling me that I was chosen. How do you think I ended up with a 6 page document of verses showing me that God has always been the chooser and humans have been the choosees. It's because I read my Bible and not my church doctrinal statements that I let go of free will thinking and embraced Reformed thinking.

I know what free will is and thankfully I kept reading my bible and trusted what it says. I found that God expects man to make real choices that will determine their eternal future. Calvinism, that I see as a man-made philosophy, distorts the biblical message. It is because I trust the bible that I can not support the false narrative called Calvinism.

 

[AustinC]

I know what free will is and thankfully I kept reading my bible and trusted what it says. I found that God expects man to make real choices that will determine their eternal future. Calvinism, that I see as a man-made philosophy, distorts the biblical message. It is because I trust the bible that I can not support the false narrative called Calvinism.

What do you do with the vast number of verses that tell us we were chosen by God?
What do you do with the zero verses that tell us we choose our salvation?

 

[Silverhair]

What do you do with the vast number of verses that tell us we were chosen by God?
What do you do with the zero verses that tell us we choose our salvation?

What do you do with the fact that what you have done is read your theology into the text as has been pointed out to you a number of times. God chooses to save those that trust in His son. You want to believe that God has to give you faith after you are saved, As I said you can not or rather will not see the forest for the trees.

By the by I did not choose my salvation, I chose to trust in the one that could save me, Christ Jesus. You know, heard the gospel believed the gospel confessed my faith in the Son.

The way you come across is that everyone has to think and do things just like you. Sorry to burst your bubble but that is not reality.

 

[AustinC]

What do you do with the fact that what you have done is read your theology into the text as has been pointed out to you a number of times. God chooses to save those that trust in His son. You want to believe that God has to give you faith after you are saved, As I said you can not or rather will not see the forest for the trees.

By the by I did not choose my salvation, I chose to trust in the one that could save me, Christ Jesus. You know, heard the gospel believed the gospel confessed my faith in the Son.

The way you come across is that everyone has to think and do things just like you. Sorry to burst your bubble but that is not reality.

I didn't read my theology into the text. My free will theology was changed by reading the text of scripture.

You keep adding to the text, such as "God chooses to save those that trust in His son."

How can a spiritually dead in sins person trust in Jesus if God has not made that person alive? Jesus stated the same thing in John 3 when he told Nicodemus that God makes a person born again, just as God caused the physical conception.

Silverhair, I once was like you. I understand just how hard it is to let go of free will philosophy that has been taught in some churches for hundreds of years. God has to untangle the garbage that free will philosophy has pumped into the mind without biblical reasons. You are a product of your extra biblical teachings. Whether God chooses to break you of your philosophy is up to God as it is clear to me that you presently have no interest in having God be the Sovereign Ruler over your life.

 

[Silverhair]

I didn't read my theology into the text. My free will theology was changed by reading the text of scripture.

You keep adding to the text, such as "God chooses to save those that trust in His son."

How can a spiritually dead in sins person trust in Jesus if God has not made that person alive? Jesus stated the same thing in John 3 when he told Nicodemus that God makes a person born again, just as God caused the physical conception.

Silverhair, I once was like you. I understand just how hard it is to let go of free will philosophy that has been taught in some churches for hundreds of years. God has to untangle the garbage that free will philosophy has pumped into the mind without biblical reasons. You are a product of your extra biblical teachings. Whether God chooses to break you of your philosophy is up to God as it is clear to me that you presently have no interest in having God be the Sovereign Ruler over your life.

The hill that you do not seem able to climb is that God has given man a free will. The bible says we are dead in our sins, I agree. If we do not trust in the Son then we will continue to be dead in those sins. Read Rom 1:16 slowly and let the words sink in. It is really clear, the gospel, the power of God to salvation, for all the believe. Or you can read Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing. What are they hearing? The gospel, it really is not that complicated.
God saves those that hear and trust, why do you not accept this?

What I find funny is that you are the one that keeps telling me that I do not believe God is sovereign. But I am the one that actually allows God to be sovereign, not you. Since God is sovereign He can and does give man a free will and holds them responsible for the choices they make. You on the other hand deny God the ability to be sovereign and put Him in a box called Calvinism. He can only be sovereign to the limit that your theology allows.

You need God to control all things down to the control of that possible rogue molecule and then claim that man in some strange way is able to overrule God and sin outside of His control. You can not say it is the mans nature or his desire as those are all controlled by your version of a sovereign God.

See what a mess you get yourself into when you deny scripture and instead hold to a man-made philosophy.

 

[AustinC]

The hill that you do not seem able to climb is that God has given man a free will. The bible says we are dead in our sins, I agree. If we do not trust in the Son then we will continue to be dead in those sins. Read Rom 1:16 slowly and let the words sink in. It is really clear, the gospel, the power of God to salvation, for all the believe. Or you can read Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing. What are they hearing? The gospel, it really is not that complicated.
God saves those that hear and trust, why do you not accept this?

What I find funny is that you are the one that keeps telling me that I do not believe God is sovereign. But I am the one that actually allows God to be sovereign, not you. Since God is sovereign He can and does give man a free will and holds them responsible for the choices they make. You on the other hand deny God the ability to be sovereign and put Him in a box called Calvinism. He can only be sovereign to the limit that your theology allows.

You need God to control all things down to the control of that possible rogue molecule and then claim that man in some strange way is able to overrule God and sin outside of His control. You can not say it is the mans nature or his desire as those are all controlled by your version of a sovereign God.

See what a mess you get yourself into when you deny scripture and instead hold to a man-made philosophy.

I climbed that mountain. I saw that man makes choices within confines of his capacity. Since man cannot break the bonds of sin no matter how hard they try, it means that someone more powerful than sin must deliver us from our bondage. That someone must choose to deliver us. He is not dependent on our opinion. For example, God freed Israel from slavery despite Israel grumbling constantly and fighting against the goad's.

 

[Silverhair]

I climbed that mountain. I saw that man makes choices within confines of his capacity. Since man cannot break the bonds of sin no matter how hard they try, it means that someone more powerful than sin must deliver us from our bondage. That someone must choose to deliver us. He is not dependent on our opinion. For example, God freed Israel from slavery despite Israel grumbling constantly and fighting against the goad's.

Ah but you keep avoiding the elephant in the room, Your version of God is the one that made them that way. You read into the text what you need to see. That is not good bible study is it. By your logic you have God working against Himself.
Luk_19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. That would be all of us wouldn't it.
Rom_3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, By your logic God made us fall short as we can do nothing He has not decreed.
The Ethiopian Eunuch read the scriptures and Philip preached the gospel message to him [Act 8:35] When the Eunuch asked what would hinder him from being baptized what did Philip say? Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And response was "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Notice the order he read the scriptures then heard the gospel and believed. Notice it does not say he was saved/regenerated then he was given faith. Further this coincides with what with what we see Paul writing in Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Read Eph 2:8 notice that we are saved by grace through faith not to faith.

Your theology abuses the text so that it can be used to support your errant theology.

 

[AustinC]

Ah but you keep avoiding the elephant in the room, Your version of God is the one that made them that way. You read into the text what you need to see. That is not good bible study is it. By your logic you have God working against Himself.
Luk_19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. That would be all of us wouldn't it.
Rom_3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, By your logic God made us fall short as we can do nothing He has not decreed.
The Ethiopian Eunuch read the scriptures and Philip preached the gospel message to him [Act 8:35] When the Eunuch asked what would hinder him from being baptized what did Philip say? Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And response was "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Notice the order he read the scriptures then heard the gospel and believed. Notice it does not say he was saved/regenerated then he was given faith. Further this coincides with what with what we see Paul writing in Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Read Eph 2:8 notice that we are saved by grace through faith not to faith.

Your theology abuses the text so that it can be used to support your errant theology.

Silverhair, what you write above is all your "logic." Don't project your "logic" upon me. You don't know what you are talking about and moreso your pot shot Bible verses don't support you. Instead, you prove my point that free will philosophy doesn't accept God's Supremacy over all creation.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, what you write above is all your "logic." Don't project your "logic" upon me. You don't know what you are talking about and moreso your pot shot Bible verses don't support you. Instead, you prove my point that free will philosophy doesn't accept God's Supremacy over all creation.

I am a sorry, did you not understand the scripture that I referenced. You are just denying the bible.