Innocent in regard to not knowing the corruption they were born in, but not born righteous. All are born in corruption. They are not righteous at birth.
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Born In Sin
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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I agree. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Original sin my friend…we are all infected with it.
You quoted, one, who had quoted, another, who had quoted Ps 51:5, now my question and desire for the thoughts of others is relative to Ps 51:5
Clearly the conception of one, in one's mother, takes place before the bringing forth, of that one.
My question is; I wonder why David put the bringing forth before the conception relative to all who have been born of woman sans Jesus Christ?
Being Joseph did not know her before she brought forth Jesus, she brought forth Jesus as a virgin and also as a virgin she was conceived of him out of Spirit.as Holy. Acts 3:14
What about; (From Romans 5:12 even as through one man the sin did enter into the world,) would cause the woman to bring forth in iniquity and in sin to conceive as applied to Cain and Abel and all thereafter? Could virginity or non-virginity be relative?
Simply put, flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Children are born sinless, but they are not born apart from the curse.
Children are born in sin. They may be innocent of knowing they are born in this corrupt state, but they are not sinless beings at birth.
They are born sinners. But they are also sinless at birth.
No
They are sinful at birth and by as early as age 6 months they display their sinful nature.
Honestly, what you are saying is a variation of Pelagius teaching.
Did the sin of Adam cause women, even if you want to begin with Eve, too, in sin, to conceive?
How about your speculative thoughts to the following speculative scenario. Let's say Eve ate yet Adam did not would she have in iniquity have brought forth, would she have in sin have conceived?
What about, the birth, of Jesus Christ. Does, the birth = conceived and brought forth?
Matt 1:24,25 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger (angel) of the Lord directed him, and received his wife and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
If Joseph had not done as the angel said and would have known her would her son - the first-born have been Holy?
Would he have been brought forth in iniquity even though conceived in a virgin as Holy?
Matt 1:20 ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδού, ἄγγελος κυρίου κατ᾽ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων, Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαβίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαριὰμ τὴν γυναῖκά σου· τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου
The virgin Mary, in her conceived out of Spirit is Holy --
Is that the reason for the construction of PS 51:5 brought forth before conceived?
How about your speculative thoughts to the following speculative scenario. Let's say Eve ate yet Adam did not would she have in iniquity have brought forth, would she have in sin have conceived?
What about, the birth, of Jesus Christ. Does, the birth = conceived and brought forth?
Matt 1:24,25 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger (angel) of the Lord directed him, and received his wife and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
If Joseph had not done as the angel said and would have known her would her son - the first-born have been Holy?
Would he have been brought forth in iniquity even though conceived in a virgin as Holy?
Matt 1:20 ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδού, ἄγγελος κυρίου κατ᾽ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων, Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαβίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαριὰμ τὴν γυναῖκά σου· τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου
The virgin Mary, in her conceived out of Spirit is Holy --
Is that the reason for the construction of PS 51:5 brought forth before conceived?
No, at age 6 months infants do not sin.
And no, what I am saying is a variation of Hebrew belief (belief that is not contradicted in Scripture, BTW). It has nothing to do with Pelagius teaching.
The difference is Pelagius believed men were not born sinners (with a sin nature). The Hebrews did not believe this (neither do I).
But out of curiosity, what sins do you believe infants commit?
Infants can lie to their parents by age 7 months.
Sneaky babies learn to lie before they learn to talk
What do they lie about? And what about 6 month olds?
They trick their parents into caring for them when there is nothing wrong. No dirty diapers, no need to feed, no need to sleep. They already have learned to try be the ruler by that age.
When I first read the original report from the London Times they said 6 months. I couldn't find that article in a quick search.
The point is that humans are born with the natural desire to rebel against all who would rule over them. They will do whatever their sinful hearts devise to be ruler.
lol....infants "trick" their parents for caring for them when nothing is wrong???
Infants cry for many reasons, to include the need for comfort, communication (they are constantly developing), interaction, affection, attention.
You truly do believe this to be infants tricking their parents.
Except by the grace of God, choosing to redeem us, we all are in hell, apart from God and His holiness.
We throw ourselves upon the Savior and seek mercy and grace for the infants and zygotes that die. David's response when his newborn son died is the response of faith we give to our children who died so young. We trust them to God's grace and mercy. But, we do not rest in the child being uncorrupt and holy on their own. That self-righteousness is never expressed in the Bible.
Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities underfoot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.
They have to. Flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom of God.
Infants experience the wages of sin, as do we all. For it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment
So the question is not our sin nature. The question is how they will stand at Judgment should they die as infants. So the question is for what sins will they be judged? Being born with an innate knowledge of God (Rom 1:19), at what point did they reject Him? When did they commit the sin of Adam, choosing the desires over the flesh over the will of God?
The Hebrew answer is at the time they are able to know good and evil, which they refer to as the "age of accountability". This is what Jesus would have been taught, as well as the Apostles. Scripture only affirms the doctrine in Matt 19:14, so it remains debatable.
You are sharing pure philosophy.
All humans are at the mercy of God. Those to whom God extends saving grace are saved, regardless of their age. Those to whom God does not extend saving grace will be condemned as Adam's corrupt offspring. All humans are under the Sovereign decision of God Almighty.
Your philosophizing is irrelevant to this discussion.
No. I am referencing the Hebrew doctrine regarding sin and accountability. I do not believe there is a particular age.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Do you believe that the kingdom of heaven bongs to such as these (as the children) OR do you philosophize and deny God's Word to make the passage mean something else?
Romans 1:18–21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Do you believe that man begins with the truth of God evident with in them, but that they reject this truth and their hearts become darkened OR do you philosophize to deny that passage and believe infants start with darkened hearts?
What does Jesus mean by such as these?
Children listen and learn, while adults have grown pride over the years. Thus the kingdom is for the humble heart. Your sentence isn't about self-righteousness of infants.
God's natural revelation of his existence is found in his creation. All humans reject God as their Sovereign Lord and his natural revelation does not change their corrupted hearts.
There is no philosophizing about infants at all in Romans 1. You are grasping at straws.
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