Born In Sin

[JonC]

What does Jesus mean by such as these?
Children listen and learn, while adults have grown pride over the years. Thus the kingdom is for the humble heart. Your sentence isn't about self-righteousness of infants.
God's natural revelation of his existence is found in his creation. All humans reject God as their Sovereign Lord and his natural revelation does not change their corrupted hearts.
There is no philosophizing about infants at all in Romans 1. You are grasping at straws.

You are philosophizing. Scripture teaches that men are born with an innate understanding which they reject. They are not born with dark hearts but their hearts darken.

Scripture does not suit your philosophy so you just ignore it by rewriting God's Word.

 

[AustinC]

You are philosophizing. Scripture teaches that men are born with an innate understanding which they reject. They are not born with dark hearts but their hearts darken.

Scripture does not suit your philosophy so you just ignore it by rewriting God's Word.

Not at all.
Have only some sinned and fall short of the glory of God or have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God?

 

[JonC]

Not at all.
Have only some sinned and fall short of the glory of God or have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God?

It depends. Are you asking about the audience to whom Scripture is written or are you asking about infants?

Same with the testimony of Creation (God evident through Creation). Does this apply to infants who cannot encounter Creation?

 

[percho]

It depends. Are you asking about the audience to whom Scripture is written or are you asking about infants?

Same with the testimony of Creation (God evident through Creation). Does this apply to infants who cannot encounter Creation?

IMHO it applies to whomever the following in bold applies, two translations YLT and Darby

for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

Age is immaterial all souls have need of atonement by the sinless blood/life/soul of Jesus.

 

[JonC]

IMHO it applies to whomever the following in bold applies, two translations YLT and Darby

for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

Age is immaterial all souls have need of atonement by the sinless blood/life/soul of Jesus.

We have to remember that it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment. Physical death is a direct consequence of sin (all flesh must die, the wages of sin is death). The "second death" is for the wicked at judgment. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

With infants, they certainly face the wages of sin (death). The question is how they will stand when it comes to the "things done while in the body". They are sinners by nature and will suffer the wages of sin. But for what sins will they be judged (what sins have they committed while in the body)?

If Austin is correct and it is a sin for a baby to cry for want if comfort, then that would be one.

 

[AustinC]

We have to remember that it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment. Physical death is a direct consequence of sin (all flesh must die, the wages of sin is death). The "second death" is for the wicked at judgment. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

With infants, they certainly face the wages of sin (death). The question is how they will stand when it comes to the "things done while in the body". They are sinners by nature and will suffer the wages of sin. But for what sins will they be judged (what sins have they committed while in the body)?

If Austin is correct and it is a sin for a baby to cry for want if comfort, then that would be one.

No one stands before God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." All are saved by grace alone. This includes infants and even those who die in the womb.

 

[JonC]

No one stands before God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." All are saved by grace alone. This includes infants and even those who die in the womb.

All are sinners, but we cannot ignore that Scripture was not written with infants as its audience. Infants are sinners, but prior to sinning they have not yet sinned.

 

[AustinC]

All are sinners, but we cannot ignore that Scripture was not written with infants as its audience. Infants are sinners, but prior to sinning they have not yet sinned.

*Romans 3:21-25*

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

How many people have sinned, Jon? Is God mistaken when he says "all?"

 

[JonC]

*Romans 3:21-25*

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

How many people have sinned, Jon? Is God mistaken when he says "all?"

And Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

You allow your philosophy to take passages out of context.

The issue is the distinction between those under the Law and those not under the Law. There is no distinction.

What sins, other than crying when in need, do you believe infants commit? How does a conceived child yet unborn observe Creation? Or do you believe a child is not a child until born?

 

[AustinC]

And Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

You allow your philosophy to take passages out of context.

The issue is the distinction between those under the Law and those not under the Law. There is no distinction.

What sins, other than crying when in need, do you believe infants commit? How does a conceived child yet unborn observe Creation? Or do you believe a child is not a child until born?

Jon, the curse is upon all humanity whereby all are corrupt from conception. Your position claims that corruption is only once a child willfully sins. That position is a form of Pelagianism. Do you follow Pelagius in believing humans are sinless until they willfully commit a sin?
You admit infants are corrupt, yet you are claiming corrupt people enter heaven apart from God's saving grace.

 

[percho]

We have to remember that it is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment. Physical death is a direct consequence of sin (all flesh must die, the wages of sin is death). The "second death" is for the wicked at judgment. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

With infants, they certainly face the wages of sin (death). The question is how they will stand when it comes to the "things done while in the body". They are sinners by nature and will suffer the wages of sin. But for what sins will they be judged (what sins have they committed while in the body)?

If Austin is correct and it is a sin for a baby to cry for want if comfort, then that would be one.

I actually do not disagree with any of that. I believe when God created man of the dust of the earth and gave him a spiritual law, Thou shall not eat of; It was appointed for him to die and then afterward the judgement.

Rom 8:2- for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

The end of the whole matter let us hear: -- 'Fear God, and keep His commands, for this is the whole of man. For every work doth God bring into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether good or bad.' Ecc 12:13,14

For sure God will be glorified!

After all is said and done what will every soul that has ever drawn breath, do?

 

[JonC]

Jon, the curse is upon all humanity whereby all are corrupt from conception. Your position claims that corruption is only once a child willfully sins. That position is a form of Pelagianism. Do you follow Pelagius in believing humans are sinless until they willfully commit a sin?
You admit infants are corrupt, yet you are claiming corrupt people enter heaven apart from God's saving grace.

You misunderstood.

I do believe that infants are under the curse. They experience the wages of sin, as they are sinners. But I am speaking of their nature (human nature). Infants that perish before committing a sin (e.g., aborted children) perish before they have committed a sin. However, should they have grown they would have sinned (they are sinners by nature).

 

[JonC]

After all is said and done what will every soul that has ever drawn breath, do?

Given the opportunity, exactly as Adam did.

 

[AustinC]

You misunderstood.

I do believe that infants are under the curse. They experience the wages of sin, as they are sinners. But I am speaking of their nature (human nature). Infants that perish before committing a sin (e.g., aborted children) perish before they have committed a sin. However, should they have grown they would have sinned (they are sinners by nature).

Jon, I am still waiting for you to tell me if "all" have sinned and fall short of the glory of God or if only "some" have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Our nature is bound in sin. We have no righteousness of our own. We need God's grace from conception to the grave and into eternity. This is why Jesus continually prays for us as our High Priest.

 

[Brightfame52]

I disagree. I understand being in Adam's image as being in the flesh ("flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God"). Christ came "in the flesh", in the "likeness of man". This is vital (to my understanding of the Atonement, which would be probably a greater disagreement).

Were you born of a virgin also ?

 

[JonC]

Jon, I am still waiting for you to tell me if "all" have sinned and fall short of the glory of God or if only "some" have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Our nature is bound in sin. We have no righteousness of our own. We need God's grace from conception to the grave and into eternity. This is why Jesus continually prays for us as our High Priest.

Your answer is given in the opening - What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?.

It does mean "all". Insofar as sin goes, Jews and Gentiles are equal. There is no distinction.

But more to your point, all are sinners as all are born "flesh" and "of Adam".

But this does not mean that infants and the unborn have committed sins.

If the aborted child would have lived it would have committed sins because it is a sinner (born with a human nature, made sin, born flesh and blood, a mind set on the flesh and unable to please God).

But your idea that being conceived itself is a sinful act is wrong.

Do you understand how man sins? "Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived"

 

[percho]

Given the opportunity, exactly as Adam did.

Methinks, after, all, is said and done Phil 2:10,11 is going to apply.

As I said, "For sure God will be glorified!"


I just had a thought relative to other scriptures. Consider.

Here is what man and the house of Israel specifically, has done from the beginning.

Ezek 36:19 - 21 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

Therefore what does God do to bring glory to his holy name? ----- Let's talk about being, born again.

V's 22-223 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24-27 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. ---- I count 8, I's there.

Acts 14-17 Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, and to this agree the words of the prophets, as it hath been written:
After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright -- that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.

V-18 'Known from the ages to God are all His works;

 

[percho]

Your answer is given in the opening - What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?.

It does mean "all". Insofar as sin goes, Jews and Gentiles are equal. There is no distinction.

But more to your point, all are sinners as all are born "flesh" and "of Adam".

But this does not mean that infants and the unborn have committed sins.

If the aborted child would have lived it would have committed sins because it is a sinner (born with a human nature, made sin, born flesh and blood, a mind set on the flesh and unable to please God).

But your idea that being conceived itself is a sinful act is wrong.

Do you understand how man sins? "Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived"

I would like to ask. Sin is the transgression of the law, Exactly when would you think one puts something in the place of God? There shall have no other Gods before me. Exactly when would you think one covets? Thou shall not covet.

Does PS 51:5 seem to imply being conceive to be a sinful act?

This also relates back to my original question concerning Ps 51 of which no one wants to address.

 

[JonC]

Were you born of a virgin also ?

Strange question.

No, my parents concieves me in the normal way people are conceived.

Christ came in the likeness of man. He "became flesh" (this is what the word "incarnation" means).

But Christ did not come into being. He is God. The Word became flesh, but the Word was in the beginning with God and the Word was God.

 

[JonC]

I would like to ask. Sin is the transgression of the law, Exactly when would you think one puts something in the place of God? There shall have no other Gods before me. Exactly when would you think one covets? Thou shall not covet.

Does PS 51:5 seem to imply being conceive to be a sinful act?

This also relates back to my original question concerning Ps 51 of which no one wants to address.

IMHO sin is more than transgressing the Law (although transgressions are sins, Paul explains that Gentiles sin even though they do not transgress the Law as they are not under the Law).

To answer your question about Psalm 51, no. We ate conceived in sin, but this conception is not itself sin.