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Featured The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by LaGrange, Jul 19, 2022.

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  1. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi 37818,

    I don’t think this is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. These verses describe “Judgement”. Judgement comes as a result of not coming to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (wrath of the Lamb - Apoc 6:15-16). Fr Kramer in his book, “The Book of Destiny”, says this verse in the Apocalypse is “The Supper of the Beast” (Apoc 19:17). It says “Supper of God” and that’s because the wrath comes from God. We would call it a “Chastisement” rather than a “Tribulation”. A Chastisement comes from God and a Tribulation is caused by man. So there are Two Suppers in chapter 19. Of course, he also refers to Matt 24:28. The vultures eating the flesh and drinking the blood (sounds like the Eucharist but it’s the opposite) refers to war because those fighting for the antichrist are defeated and the vultures consume the flesh of the dead. Apoc 19:11-18 is the anticipation of the defeat of the antichrist and it actually happens in the Battle of Armegeddon in Apoc 19:19. You can also see the prophecy in the parallel verse Ezek 39:17-20. There are other verses as well.
     
    #21 LaGrange, Jul 24, 2022
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What is also called "The Lord's Supper" is explicitly called a remembrance. I do not acknowledge it or the believers immersion aka baptism as any kind of Sacrament.
     
    #22 37818, Jul 24, 2022
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are multiple issues to the differences of interpretation. The Apostle Paul that the remembrance, ". . . For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. . . ." 1 Corinthians 11:36.
     
    #23 37818, Jul 24, 2022
  4. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi 37818,
    Are you answering Apoc 19:17-21? It sounds like your answer here should have been on the other post.
     
    #24 LaGrange, Jul 24, 2022
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  5. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi 37818,

    Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This IS my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. (DRV)

    Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and igave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. (KJV)

    1 Cor 5:7-8 ……For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast,

    My Comment: I counted 6 times in Luke 22 that the word “Pasch” (Passover) is used (Luke 22:1,7, 8,11,13,15). This ties the Last Supper to the Passover. The Passover is a sacrifice, therefore, the Last Supper is a sacrifice. The Last Supper and the Crucifixion are both under the time of the Passover in Luke 22 tying them together. Christ’s Passion that leads to the Crucifixion begins with the Agony in the Garden (Luke 22:39-46) and the Betrayal (Luke 22:47). This ties the Crucifixion to the Last Supper. The DRV refers to the Passover as a “Sacrifice” in Ex 12 three times (Ex 12:6,21,31). The KJV refers to the Passover as a sacrifice one time (Ex 12:27). The KJV uses “kill” in the other places. If you go back to Exodus 12, you will see that the Passover is to be a “memorial feast” and an “everlasting observance” (Ex 12:14) God commanded them to only eat “unleavened bread” (Ex 12:8,15,17,18, 20,39) and eat the “Lamb” (Ex 12:4) just like in the Catholic Mass. “Unleavened bread” is used in Luke 22 two times (Luke 22:1,7) as we use it in the Catholic Mass. In 1 Cor 5:7-8 Paul refers to the Passover sacrifice as still going on! Remember it said the Passover was to be an “everlasting observance”? (Ex 12:14) This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. So when it says “Remembrance” in the KJV it is referring to a “Sacrifice” that is “made present” at the Last Supper (“This IS my body” Luke 22:19) and continued in the Catholic Mass. Christ commanded this Supper and Sacrifice (Catholic Mass) in Luke 22 when He told His Apostles, “Do this for a commemoration of me”(DRV) or “this do in remembrance of me.” (KJV) (Luke 22:19).
     
    #25 LaGrange, Jul 25, 2022
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What Jesus said was clearly metaphor. He had not yet gone to the cross when He instituted this remembrance. And Judas took part too. Personally I find the concept of the Mass irrational.
     
    #26 37818, Jul 25, 2022
  7. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi 37818,

    Ok. I would make one last suggestion. Try to figure out what the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is. In your post #18 you said you didn’t know. Thanks for talking to me. God bless you!
     
    #27 LaGrange, Jul 25, 2022
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 19:9 is a sole reference. Matthew 22:2-14 is its parable. Revelation 3:5 is the promise. 1 John 5:1-5.
     
    #28 37818, Jul 25, 2022
  9. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    #29 LaGrange, Jul 25, 2022
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #30 37818, Jul 26, 2022
  11. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

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    Thanks for your responses!

    However, you haven't proven nor shown from Scripture that the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb is equated to the Eucharist or Lord's Supper we do often, in remembrance of Christ's death. They are two completely distinct events. One has to do with a MARRIAGE, which only occurs ONCE & hasn't happened yet, because Christ has not returned for His bride, the church of all those who HAVE BEEN SPIRITUALLY born a second time in this physical life, from above by God (not water baptism). The other has to do with a once for all death of Christ OVER 2000 years ago, that is celebrated regularly, in remembrance, as we proclaim His death UNTIL HE COMES. They are not the same event & have different time frames & purposes.

    Also the picture of a marriage in Scripture comes from the Jewish OT teachings & followed up with NT correlations. They bethrothal period IS NOT the consummation of the marriage, yet in the biblical sense they are husband & wife as was Joseph & Mary when carrying Jesus. That is the biblical view, whether you understand it or not. They had not yet consummated the marriage (Mary had not has sexual relations with Joseph until AFTER Jesus was born; thus the virgin conception & birth by the power of the Holy Spirit).

    Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Th.M., Ph.D, is one of the foremost authorities on the nation of Israel, and is a messianic Jewish believer. He received his B.A. from Cedarville University, his Th.M from Dallas Theological Seminary, and his Ph.D. from NY Univ.. His graduate work also includes studies at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York and the Hebrew Univ. of Jerusalem. Based in San Antonio, TX he is the founder of Ariel Ministries, which is dedicated to evangelism of Jewish people & discipleship of Jewish & Gentile believers from a messianic Jewish frame of reference.

    He presents a Jewish view of marriage from the Scriptures & the stages involved.
     
    #31 Mathetes66, Jul 28, 2022
  12. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi Mathetes66,

    I know you didn’t read my posts. When you originally responded you said everything I said was “Symbolic”. You asserted this but didn’t prove it. Then the rest of your response (a long response) was a “Monologue”. This is typical. My response to your “Monologue” was to critique it directly. You don’t do the same. You just make one-liner assertions! I showed how all the stages were fulfilled in the past and not in the future. Take one of my original posts and break it down and criticize it directly. If you don’t I hope all the viewers take notice of this. It’s only your interpretation that the Marriage Supper hasn’t happened yet. Dispensationalists really do think everything is symbolic! So the Last Supper to you doesn’t really mean anything. Would you explain the Last Supper? Was Jesus just killing time?
     
    #32 LaGrange, Jul 29, 2022
  13. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi All,

    I originally said:

    “I thought showing the Mass as the Marriage Supper would be a different way of showing the Mass and it would be building upon the understanding you already have in the Marriage Supper. Instead of using all the usual verses to show the biblical basis for The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Eucharist), which I partially showed in the thread titled “Rapture Question”, I will use mostly different ones. It’s a different approach.” (Post #1, paragraph 1)

    To prove the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was the Marriage Supper, in this thread, I used “Types” and “Contexts” instead of the usual breaking down of the words
    and their meanings. I could show that “Remembrance = Sacrifice” and things like that and I may do that soon in another thread. In the thread “Rapture Question”, I quoted and briefly discussed John 6, 1 Cor 11 and the Last Supper verses: Matt 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20.

    Here’s a couple of Misc thoughts I had looking at this again this morning:

    Marriage Supper is a Sacrifice

    Is 25:6 And the Lord of hosts shall make unto all people in this mountain, a feast of fat things, a feast of wine, of fat things full of marrow, of wine purified from the lees.

    My Comment: A cross reference to Apoc 19:9 is Is 25:6. This is on Mount Zion (Is 24:23) and remember, my post #2 was on Mount Zion. A “feast of fat things” shows that the Supper is a “sacrifice” (for another example, see Num 18:32)

    Marriage Supper is Now and in this world

    Apoc 3:20 Behold, I stand at the gate and knock. If any man shall hear my voice and open to me the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him: and he with me.

    My Comment: Dr. Scott Hahn, in his book the “Lamb’s Supper”, says Apoc 3:20 refers to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (p128). This verse shows that it is NOW that we come to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Apoc 19:9). Fr Kramer says so too (The Book of Destiny). Also, another cross reference to Apoc 3:20 is Luke 24:30-31 which is about the disciples on the road to Emmaus. They see Christ in the “Breaking of Bread”. Notice: The disciples are alive in THIS WORLD and this took place 2,000 years ago. It is not just in the future. Also see Apoc 2:17 and John 6:48-52 (John 6:48-51 KJV) about the “hidden manna”.
     
    #33 LaGrange, Jul 31, 2022
  14. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Correction to Post #33: I did break down the meaning of the words in Post #25 but I didn’t do all of it. I will do more in another thread.
     
    #34 LaGrange, Jul 31, 2022
  15. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi All,

    Can anyone tell me exactly what the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is?

    Everybody knows what the Marriage Supper is not (Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) but nobody knows what it actually is! What is it?

    I was trying to find someone to explain exactly what the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is. Here’s what I found:

    Marriage Supper of the Lamb
    What is it?

    Spurgeon

    “There will come a time when all God’s redeemed shall be saved. There will come a day when all who have died shall have been raised again from the tomb, and those who remain alive shall have been changed, so that their corruption shall have put on incorruption, and mortality shall have put on immortality. Then will the Church be perfect and complete; no one member will be missing. There will be no spot or wrinkle remaining in her. Then it shall come to pass that Christ will celebrate this marriage supper, which will be the bringing of the people of God into the closest and happiest union with Christ their Lord in glory.”
    “That feast will be, like most other marriage suppers, the fulfilment of long expectation.”
    “Then will be also the day of the open publication of the great fact of mutual love and union.”
    “Moreover, the picture of a marriage supper is intended to set forth the overflowing of mutual delight and joy.”
    “Brethren, to add just one other thought, that marriage feast will be the grandest display of Christ's magnificent munificence in a banquet.”
    (Spurgeon, Part 2, Collection: Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 41, 1887)

    My Comment: These descriptions of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb seem to describe the “effects” of the Marriage Supper rather than explaining what the Marriage Supper actually is. It sounds like Spurgeon thinks the Marriage Supper is similiar to the Beatific Vision. That’s probably wrong but that’s what it looks like.
    Dr. Ice seems to think it’s something everybody is going to do on earth in the millennial reign.

    If I have time, I may do a critique on an article by Dr. Thomas Ice on the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    Can anyone tell me exactly what the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is?
     
    #35 LaGrange, Jul 31, 2022
  16. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi All,

    I keep thinking about this so here’s a little more.

    Marriage Supper or the Beatific Vision?

    Definitions of the Marriage Supper from the internet:

    The marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolic representation of the joyful, intimate, and eternal fellowship that takes place between Jesus Christ (the Lamb of God) and his bride (the Church). This future picture of a great wedding feast is drawn from both Old Testament and New Testament imagery.

    The wedding supper, or marriage supper depending on the translation, is the celebration that will occur sometime during the end of days, when those who will spend eternity in Heaven celebrate being united with Jesus forever. The believers are symbolized by the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom.

    The marriage supper of the Lamb is a glorious celebration of all who are in Christ!

    Definitions of the Beatific Vision:

    Souls of all the saints who departed from this world who…..will see the divine essence by intuitive vision, and even face to face, with no mediating creature, serving in the capacity of an object seen, but divine essence immediately revealing itself plainly, clearly, and openly, to them, and seeing thus they enjoy the same divine openly, to them, and seeing thus they enjoy the same divine essence, and also that from such vision and enjoyment their souls, which now have departed, are truly blessed and they have eternal life and rest…[Denziger’s, #530 (1000)]

    They (the souls of the just) see the divine essence by an intuitive vision and face to face, so that the divine essence is known immediately, showing itself nakedly clearly and openly, and not mediately through any creature. (Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)

    My Comment: All three of the definitions of the Marriage Supper are extremely symbolic and could easily be taken to be the Beatific Vision (1 Cor 13:12, 1 John 3:2). The only difference I can see is that most think the Marriage Supper will take place on earth during the millennial reign whereas the Beatific Vision will only take place in heaven. The problem is that after the Second Coming, you will see Christ face to face so it has to be one or the other. My question is: Which is it?
     
    #36 LaGrange, Aug 1, 2022
  17. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

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    First of all, you quoted out of context only part of what Charles Spurgeon stated. The full text of what he said is here:

    The Spurgeon Library | The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

    You LEFT OUT of the partial quote of Spurgeon the very line PRECEDING IT which plainly told you he was going to explain what the marriage supper actually is! Here is the preceding line:

    "But now, secondly, I have to speak a little upon THE MEANING OF THE MARRIAGE SUPPER..."

    And when he mentions beatitude, he is referring to adding another beatitude to the list of beatitudes beginning the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:1ff): blessed are the..., NOT THE BEATIFIC VISION.

    You may need to read this numerous times, one line at a time to simply see what Spurgeon is actually saying.

    Line 1: "There will come a time WHEN ALL God's REDEEMED shall be saved."

    Are people still being saved today? Yes, people are still coming to Christ around the world. Has that time arrived when ALL God's redeemed are finally saved? No. The subject of those going to celebrate in the marriage supper of the Lamb are ALL the redeemed. So Spurgeon simply is saying THAT TIME hasn't happened yet since all have not been saved.

    Line 2: "There will come A DAY WHEN all who have died shall have been RAISED AGAIN FROM THE TOMB & those who remain alive SHALL HAVE BEEN CHANGED, so that their CORRUPTION will have put on INCORRUPTION & MORTALITY shall have PUT ON IMMORTALITY."

    Has that day arrived, as described in I Thess 4:13-17? No. Has that day arrived, as similarly described in I Cor 15:20-25; 35,36; 42-53, just as Spurgeon is referring to? No.

    22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has DESTROYED ALL dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

    51Listen, I tell you a mystery...we will ALL BE CHANGED— IN AN INSTANT, in the TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the LAST TRUMPET...the dead will be raised imperishable...

    All this hasn't happened yet. The last enemy still hasn't been defeated yet; people are still physically dying. Thus the marriage supper has not yet been celebrated, as Spurgeon states in the above quote.

    Line 3: "Then will the Church be perfect & complete; no one member will be missing. There will be no spot or wrinkle remaining in her."

    Again the subject matter is about all the redeemed & saved in Christ, His Body the church, of which all believers are members (see I Cor 12). The church is not yet perfect & complete, because some members have yet to be saved. Spurgeon says THEN (time frame) the marriage supper of the Lamb can be celebrated because ALL MEMBERS ARE THERE, NOT ONE IS MISSING. The Lamb's bride is ready NOW for the celebrating supper.

    Rev 21:1,2 Then I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & earth HAD PASSED AWAY & the sea WAS NO MORE. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, PREPARED AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND.

    Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake, clothe yourself with strength, O Zion! Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, holy city! For the uncircumcised & unclean will no longer enter you.

    Isaiah 61:10 I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, my soul will exult in my God; for He has clothed me with garments of salvation & wrapped me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom wears a priestly headdress, as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

    Mt 22:2-9,14 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy. For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    Rev 19:9 Then the angel told me to write, "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb."

    Lines 5: THEN IS SHALL COME TO PASS that Christ will CELEBRATE THIS MARRIAGE SUPPER--which WILL BE THE BRINGING OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD into the closest & happiest union with Christ their Lord IN GLORY.”

    Not UNTIL ALL the events of lines 1-3 have occurred will the marriage supper of the Lamb & the Father's Son THEN be celebrated. The specific time frames are outlined, the specific events that must occur are pointed out in detail & the bride, all the members of the Body of Christ, will only be there & not one will be missing. All are raised with immortal bodies. It will not be celebrated until all these things have occurred. The bride & bridegroom is identified. The time that it will be celebrated is clearly explained.

    To me it is straightforward as to what Spurgeon says, especially when you read the WHOLE QUOTE. You do him dishonor by only selectively quoting parts out of context. Here is more as to what he says it is.

    "Yet there shall come a day when we shall see him face to face, and then we shall know him with a clearer & fuller knowledge than is possible to us today. Oh, the amazing bliss when he shall manifest himself to us in all his glory! And there will come such a day for all whom he has redeemed, for all who trust him & rest in his atoning sacrifice. THAT WILL BE THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB.

    That feast will be, like most other marriage suppers, the fulfilment of long expectation. Our Lord WAITED LONG FOR HIS PERFECTED CHURCH. He ESPOUSED HIMSELF TO HER BEFORE EVER THE EARTH WAS; but there was much to be done ere she was PREPARED FOR THE MARRIAGE. The Bridegroom, too, had to leave his Father & become one with his Bride by taking upon himself our humanity. Here was he born & here he lived & here he died. BUT STILL THE BRIDE WAS NOT READY.” Souls HAVE TO BE SAVED & THE WHOLE OF THEM MUST BE GATHERED TO MAKE UP THE BODY OF CHRIST'S SPOUSE & when THAT IS DONE & she is all complete, the expectations of the Christ will be FULFILLED AT THAT MARRIAGE SUPPER. O beloved, you do not know the longings of the heart of Christ for that day of glory! For this he lived; for this he died; for this he continually pleads that all for whom he shed his precious blood might be his in that day. THAT DAY IS FAST COMING & WHEN IT ARRIVES, THEN WILL BE THE WEDDING FEAST ABOVE."

    Not one mention of the Eucharist is ever stated in Spurgeon's whole quote equating it to the Lamb's marriage supper. I could quote in context MANY Bible expositors saying similar things, but if you treat them like you did with Charles Spurgeon's quote, I will not waste my time. I went into detail on this because it was a misrepresentation of Spurgeon's explanation of what the marriage supper is, which is what you keep asking for. I hope this will be a help to you in answering your question.
     
    #37 Mathetes66, Aug 1, 2022
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    #38 Martin Marprelate, Aug 2, 2022
  19. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi Mathetes66,

    I want you to know up front that if I am wrong on something, and you point it out, I will admit it. I’ve been wrong before but I don’t think this is one of those times. There has been no one who has defined what the Marriage Supper of the Lamb was on this thread. I truly appreciate this post from you because maybe this is the definition.

    I want to be crystal clear here: Is this (in the dark print above) the definition of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?

    If this is Spurgeon’s definition and your definition then we need not go any further. By definition, this is the Beatific Vision and NOT the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. You really need to read up on the Beatific Vision.

    Let me know whether this is the definition or not. The rest of your post is about when and where. I am interested in “What” the Marriage Supper is right now.

    So, the SUPPER IS NOT A SUPPER? It’ not literally a Supper? He doesn’t mention the Eucharist and one big reason is because it’s not the Marriage Supper - it’s the Beatific Vision! I know he didn’t believe in the Eucharist anyway. I didn’t quote those first few lines or so but I got the jest of it. I couldn’t believe those opening lines were the definition! I NEVER try to hide from any quote or selectively quote something on purpose. I’m after the truth. I have to say that not you or anyone else could tell me what it was! I had to find it. If that quote above is the definition I got it right.
     
    #39 LaGrange, Aug 2, 2022
  20. LaGrange

    LaGrange Active Member

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    Hi Martin,
    I think it will be in the millennial reign too. I believe in a future era of peace but not a literal thousand years, however, I believe it is also happening now. This description of a sacrifice in the OT is prophecying in the future and is fulfilled in the Last Supper and Crucifixion. The Last Supper took place on Mount Zion (Is 24:23), as I said in my previous post, and it is continuing now as Christ commanded it to be done. Is 25:6 says it’s on a mountain and that is Mount Zion.
     
    #40 LaGrange, Aug 2, 2022
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