Born In Sin

[JonC]

I get it. Human nature is to sin, but children haven't sinned yet, therefore they aren't sinners who can be condemned. It's just a twist on Pelagianism. You still make the child uncorrupt until they choose to sin or reach "the age of accountability."
It is cut and dry and it is a form of Pelagianism where humans theoretically have the capacity to never sin if they fight off their urges.


No, I am not claiming anything about the Hebrews. I am saying your falling upon a supposed Hebrew philosophy of an "age of accountability" is a philosophy that is not biblical, but is a human invention to try explain how children who die will not go to hell.
I am saying that we have to live with the tension that our children are saved by grace or they die in their corruption without redemption. We have to leave this mystery in God's hands. The "age of accountability" is a mythical philosophy.

No. They are under condemnation for the wages of sin is death. But the unborn have not committed any sinful actions.

I know you disagree, but you have not yet provided a list of sinful actions committed by unborn children.

And I do not believe there is an age of accountability. I am saying the comparison would be more honest.

Your view seems to me like a slight twist on Mormonism. Were you, by chance, a Mormon before converting to Baptist faith?

 

[JonC]

How is that not Pelagianism?

Easy. Pelagianism holds that we are not by nature sinners and that we can keep from sinning of our own accord.

The better question is "how is the view that the unborn are sinners who have not yet committed any sinful acts" Pelagianism?

What sinful acts do you believe the unborn commit in their mother's womb?

 

[37818]

The better question is "how is the view that the unborn are sinners who have not yet committed any sinful acts" Pelagianism?

What sinful acts do you believe the unborn commit in their mother's womb?

What make one wicked? Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. . . ."

 

[JonC]

What make one wicked? Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. . . ."

I am not saying the unborn are not sinners in need of redemption. I am saying they are sinners by nature even though they have not (yet) committed any sinful actions. This is what you and @AustinC are calling Pelagianism and I am asking you to defend that accusation.

I am not looking for agreement with my view. I am looking for honesty.

 

[37818]

. . . though they have not (yet) committed any sinful actions.

Romans 9:11, ". . . for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, . . ." [MLV]
Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb. . . ." [MLV]

 

[JonC]

Romans 9:11, ". . . for* the children were not yet born, nor had practiced anything good or evil, . . ." [MLV]
Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb. . . ." [MLV]

I agree with both of those passages. In fact, that is my point.

The unborn are sinners without actually practicing evil.

Yet you say that is Pelagianism.

Do you believe Paul preached Pelagianism when he wrote that those not yet born had practiced neither good or evil?

That's rhetorical. Of course you do, otherwise you'd be a hypocrite (when Paul says it, he's right but when jonc says it jonc's wrong).

 

[Brightfame52]

I am not saying the unborn are not sinners in need of redemption. I am saying they are sinners by nature even though they have not (yet) committed any sinful actions. This is what you and @AustinC are calling Pelagianism and I am asking you to defend that accusation.

I am not looking for agreement with my view. I am looking for honesty.

Even though a newborn may not yet have sinned in themselves, Yet God has reckoned that they sinned in their Head Adam. In other words, when Adam sinned, a multitude of unborn people sinned Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thats why they are sinners by nature and in need of redemption from the womb

 

[tyndale1946]

Even though a newborn may not yet have sinned in themselves, Yet God has reckoned that they sinned in their Head Adam. In other words, when Adam sinned, a multitude of unborn people sinned Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thats why they are sinners by nature and in need of redemption from the womb

Just like us, babies need a Savior too!!!... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

Even though a newborn may not yet have sinned in themselves, Yet God has reckoned that they sinned in their Head Adam. In other words, when Adam sinned, a multitude of unborn people sinned Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thats why they are sinners by nature and in need of redemption from the womb

I agree. Although they have not yet sinned they are by nature sinners in need of redemption.

But two here say that is an affirmation of pelagianism because we both believe the unborn, although sinners, have not had the opportunity to sin in deed.

 

[37818]

Yet you say that is Pelagianism.

Claiming that the unborn are sinless. One can sin ignorantly. Numbers 15:24.

 

[AustinC]

I agree. Although they have not yet sinned they are by nature sinners in need of redemption.

But two here say that is an affirmation of pelagianism because we both believe the unborn, although sinners, have not had the opportunity to sin in deed.

This is the clearest statement you have made on this subject. In this statement, I do not see Pelagianism. Here you admit that they are unborn sinners, which is not what I was reading from you before. Your earlier comments were implying that there is no condemnation on infants until they willfully sin, which would be a twist of Pelagianism.

 

[JonC]

This is the clearest statement you have made on this subject. In this statement, I do not see Pelagianism. Here you admit that they are unborn sinners, which is not what I was reading from you before. Your earlier comments were implying that there is no condemnation on infants until they willfully sin, which would be a twist of Pelagianism.

If you look you will find that I have always referred to natural man (regardless of age) as sinners by nature. My earlier statements were rather the (infants) are sinners who face the wages of sin and need redemption although they have not actually sinned.

 

[JonC]

Claiming that the unborn are sinless. One can sin ignorantly. Numbers 15:24.

One can sin in ignorance, I agree.

What sinful acts do you believe are committed by the unborn?

 

[37818]

One can sin in ignorance, I agree.

What sinful acts do you believe are committed by the unborn?

The word of God is explicitly silent on that matter.
The need to understand the significance of Genesis 2:17 in Genesis 3:22 and how this affects all mankind, Romans 5:12.

 

[Salty]

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[JonC]

The word of God is explicitly silent on that matter.
The need to understand the significance of Genesis 2:17 in Genesis 3:22 and how this affects all mankind, Romans 5:12.

Not really, just not specific. Why does the kingdom of God belong to "such as these"? If because of simple faith, most (including you) could not be saved as views expressed here are far from simple faith.

 

[37818]

Not really, just not specific. Why does the kingdom of God belong to "such as these"? If because of simple faith, most (including you) could not be saved as views expressed here are far from simple faith.

The general redemption includes who are not of an age to believe. Otherwise how would there names be in God's book? Revelation 20:15. [And those who believe have the promise, Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5.]

 

[JonC]

The general redemption includes who are not of an age to believe. Otherwise how would there names be in God's book? Revelation 20:15. [And those who believe have the promise, Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5.]

I agree.

 

[percho]

Not really, just not specific. Why does the kingdom of God belong to "such as these"? If because of simple faith, most (including you) could not be saved as views expressed here are far from simple faith.

The kingdom of God belongs to, "such as those," because unless one is born again, of spirit, rather than. of flesh, they will not see, enter or inherit the kingdom of God.

And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: <<<<<<<<

Changed, to be, of what?
After that change will the following be, truth? From Lev. 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood;
Gen. 2:7 And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul. <<<<< Exactly, what, became living soul and exactly why did it possess, life, become kinetic possessing five senses with thought and speech?

 

[Salty]

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