Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Then it seems you just ignore the context.
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God elects the sinner; the sinner does not elect God
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Then it seems you just ignore the context.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Wrong emphasis. For by grace are ye saved through faith. Note God saves those that have faith in the Son.
What is the "it is the gift of God" Well Paul was kind enough to tell us:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
See were told the consequence of sin, death and what the result of faith is eternal life which Paul tells us is the gift of God.
How you keep missing these truths is really a puzzle to me.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Actually we are told He gave His life for "the sheep". The only time that we hear about "his sheep" is what the shepherd divides them from the goats in the end times.
But what does the bible tell us about who Christ died for:
HE DIED FOR
Mat_9:13; Luk_5:32 died for sinners
1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
Joh_3:17 the world
Joh_3:16; Joh_3:18 whoever believes
1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
Rom_5:8-10 us while we were sinners
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many
Joh_11:50-51 Israel
Eph_5:25 the Church
Gal_2:20 “me”
KenH
Well-Known Member
KenH
Well-Known Member
The context in John chapter 10 is all about His sheep.
John 10:26-30 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (emphasis mine)
KenH
Well-Known Member
Acts of the Apostles 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
(emphasis mine)
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You forgot to include some important verses in you quote
Joh 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
Jesus encouraged those whom He declared were not His sheep/followers to consider the evidence of His miracles in order to believe in Him and become His sheep/followers.
Joh 10:37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
So, once again we see that there is a condition to becoming one of His sheep. FAITH in the Son. As He said if you want to be one of MY sheep believe in me.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But once again I have to ask, why do you care what any of the bible says. Remember you were chosen before the foundation of the world, you were already saved. That is your Calvinist theology is it not?
You come across as a very confused person. Do you really know your own theological view and what it says?
Remember one is only elect when they are in Christ and you are only in Christ when you believe and if you believe in Christ then you are saved.
KenH I am just trying to get a handle on where you are coming from because what you say on one hand does not comport with what you say on the other.
For sure the sheep believe in the Shepherd; that is a given. What you seem to miss is that one does not become a sheep by believing; one believes because one is a sheep. "...You do not believe because you are not of My sheep." He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe." "My sheep hear My voice." The goats do not.
We were elected and chosen by God the father to be found in Christ Jesus, due to a sovereign act of his will. but not saved until confirmed that truth by receiving Jesus as lord thru faith!
37818
Well-Known Member
That explicit truth is not in not the issue. The unBibiical claim that He paid solely for the sins of His sheep is at issue.
37818
Well-Known Member
Abosolutly says nothing about being the elect.
37818
Well-Known Member
Really?
Matthew 20:28 and in Matthew 22:14. It is the many who are called Christ paid for them. Only a few of them will be His elect.
37818
Well-Known Member
Not at issue.
37818
Well-Known Member
But not solely for His sheep.
Then you deny Scriptures as in Matthew 20:28 and as in Matthew 22:14.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Martin, how can you, as a minister, not understand context. You have ignored the verses that I quoted, rather you add in goats that are not mentioned in John at all, you have to read that into the text. What Christ does say is that some of the sheep from among all the sheep do follow Him and we see from the context, that you seem to ignore, that the ones that follow Him are those that have seen the works and heard the words and believed. Joh 10: 25 & Joh 10:37-38.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That has to be one of the worst renderings of the text I have ever seen. The one thing that you did have correct is that we are indeed saved when we receive Christ Jesus as Lord through faith and that is when we become one of the elect.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There is an Outward and an Inward CALL. SIMMONS- THE OUTWARD AND INWARD CALLS
The Outward Call:
4. THIS CALL, OF ITSELF, IS ALWAYS INEFFECTIVE
To Israel God said: "When I called, ye did not answer" (Isa. 65:12). The call referred to here was an outward call similar to the call now under discussion. Because of man's depravity, the preaching of the gospel alone is never sufficient to bring him to Christ. He needs more than an outward call. The gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Rom. 1:16); but "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1 Cor. 2:14). Man must be enabled to turn from sin and believe on Christ. Jer. 13:23; John 12:39,40; 6:44,65.
Nevertheless, it is the immediate duty of all to accept this call. Acts 17:30.
5. THIS CALL IS SINCERE
Arminians object that the Calvinistic system of doctrine makes a general call insincere. Sincere means "being in reality as in appearance. Intending precisely what one says or what one appears to intend." Having defined the term under discussion, we are now prepared to examine into the exact grounds of this objection. Three Calvinistic teachings are pointed out as rendering a general call insincere. They are:
(1) The teaching that man by nature is unable to turn from sin to Christ.
Arminians say if the case with the natural man were such as Calvinists represent it, and this were fully known to God, then God could not be sincere in inviting men to come to Christ. But there is nothing in the general call that makes it appear that all men are able to respond to it. This is nothing more than an unwarranted inference. And it has its foundation, not in the call itself, but in an erroneous conception of man's state by nature. Hence this call is not insincere.
"God's call to all men to repent and to believe the gospel is no more insincere than His command to all men to Love Him with all the heart. There is no obstacle in the way of men's obedience to the gospel, that does not exist to prevent their obedience to the law. If it is proper to publish the commands of the law, it is proper to publish the invitations of the gospel. A human being may be perfectly sincere in giving an invitation which he knows will be refused. He may desire to have the invitation accepted, while yet he may, for certain reasons of justice and personal dignity, be unwilling to put forth special efforts, aside from the invitation itself, to secure the acceptance of it on the part of those to whom it is offered" (Strong).
Does God's invitation or call to all men any more appear to indicate that all men can accept it than His command to all men to love Him supremely appears to indicate that all men can do it?
(2) The teaching as to God's elective purpose to save only a portion of Adam's race.
Arminians say if God has purposed to save only a portion of Adam's race, then He cannot sincerely invite all men to come to Christ for salvation. Let it first be remarked as to this phase of the objection that the objector, to have even the semblance of consistency, must deny the foreknowledge of God. For, if God foreknew everything, then He certainly foreknew that all men would not believe the gospel, since we see that all do not. And certainly no evangelical would say that God purposed to save those who reject the gospel. So, if the foreknowledge of God be true, then God purposed to save only a part of Adam's race, believers. Hence consistency demands that the Arminian surrender either this phase of the objection or else surrender the foreknowledge of God. He cannot be logical and hold both.
(3) The doctrine of a limited atonement.
This was touched on in relation to the sincerity of God's general call through the gospel in the previous chapter. However we give it further brief notice. If one is going before a large number of people to offer to each one of them a ten-dollar bill, and he has inerrant knowledge before hand that only a hundred out of that number will accept his offer, need he in order to make a sincere offer to all have more than one hundred ten-dollar bills? Surely not. Knowing that he has a sufficient number to supply all that will accept the offer, he can most freely and sincerely say, "Let every one of you that desires a ten-dollar bill come to me and I will give you one." Is it not manifest to all who can think logically that, in a case such as is described above, the failure of all the people except the hundred to receive a ten-dollar bill would be due to their refusal of the offer, and not to lack of provision?
God's general call is in appearance no more than it is in reality. And He appears to intend no more than He does actually intend. This does not appear as something that all men can respond to nor as something that will enable men to come to Christ or that will necessarily impel them to come. Nor does this call appear to affirm that God has made a futile provision of salvation for those who persist in unbelief. In this call God appears to intend that all men are welcome if they will come; that all who come will be received. He actually intends just this. It is just as much a Bible truth that all who come to Christ will be saved as it is that only the elect will be saved. We can heartily and gladly subscribe to the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith in saying that "nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth except his own inherent depravity and voluntary refusal to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ." In other words, these are the things that send the sinner to Hell.
...
The Inward Call is always effective.
The following Scriptures refer to the inward call: Acts 2:39; Rom. 1:6; 8.28,30; 9:11,24; 1 Cor. 1:1,26; 7:15; Gal. 1:15; 5:8; Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 9:15; 1 Pet. 1.15; 2:9; 3:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3,10; Jude 1. Some of these Scriptures, as has been indicated already, seem to allude to both the inward and outward call.
1. THIS CALL IS A DIRECT CALL THROUGH THE SPIRIT
The Holy Spirit takes the preached gospel and opening the heart of the sinner (Acts 16:14), applies the word to the heart in regenerating power. It is then, and only then, that man is able to understand and receive the things of the Spirit of God. Thus the inward call is also through the gospel, but it is through the gospel as applied by the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures touching on this work of the Spirit through the word will be given when we study regeneration.
2. THIS CALL IS PARTICULAR
By means of it the chosen objects of God's saving grace are singled out. The difference here between the outward and the inward calls may be imperfectly illustrated by the difference between a general invitation extended by a church to the people of a community to attend its services and the personal invitations that are extended to particular individuals by the membership of the church. Of course, as we have said, this only imperfectly illustrates the difference between God's two calls. Rom. 8:30 shows the particularity of this call.
3. THIS CALL IS ALWAYS EFFECTIVE
It is manifest that the Scriptures given at the beginning of the discussion of this call refer to an effective and efficient call. This call is never resisted; yet, in responding to it, man acts voluntarily and freely. See chapter on "The Free Agency of Man." The effectiveness of this call is shown by Rom. 8:28, 30; 1 Cor. 1:24.
The Outward Call:
4. THIS CALL, OF ITSELF, IS ALWAYS INEFFECTIVE
To Israel God said: "When I called, ye did not answer" (Isa. 65:12). The call referred to here was an outward call similar to the call now under discussion. Because of man's depravity, the preaching of the gospel alone is never sufficient to bring him to Christ. He needs more than an outward call. The gospel "is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Rom. 1:16); but "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged" (1 Cor. 2:14). Man must be enabled to turn from sin and believe on Christ. Jer. 13:23; John 12:39,40; 6:44,65.
Nevertheless, it is the immediate duty of all to accept this call. Acts 17:30.
5. THIS CALL IS SINCERE
Arminians object that the Calvinistic system of doctrine makes a general call insincere. Sincere means "being in reality as in appearance. Intending precisely what one says or what one appears to intend." Having defined the term under discussion, we are now prepared to examine into the exact grounds of this objection. Three Calvinistic teachings are pointed out as rendering a general call insincere. They are:
(1) The teaching that man by nature is unable to turn from sin to Christ.
Arminians say if the case with the natural man were such as Calvinists represent it, and this were fully known to God, then God could not be sincere in inviting men to come to Christ. But there is nothing in the general call that makes it appear that all men are able to respond to it. This is nothing more than an unwarranted inference. And it has its foundation, not in the call itself, but in an erroneous conception of man's state by nature. Hence this call is not insincere.
"God's call to all men to repent and to believe the gospel is no more insincere than His command to all men to Love Him with all the heart. There is no obstacle in the way of men's obedience to the gospel, that does not exist to prevent their obedience to the law. If it is proper to publish the commands of the law, it is proper to publish the invitations of the gospel. A human being may be perfectly sincere in giving an invitation which he knows will be refused. He may desire to have the invitation accepted, while yet he may, for certain reasons of justice and personal dignity, be unwilling to put forth special efforts, aside from the invitation itself, to secure the acceptance of it on the part of those to whom it is offered" (Strong).
Does God's invitation or call to all men any more appear to indicate that all men can accept it than His command to all men to love Him supremely appears to indicate that all men can do it?
(2) The teaching as to God's elective purpose to save only a portion of Adam's race.
Arminians say if God has purposed to save only a portion of Adam's race, then He cannot sincerely invite all men to come to Christ for salvation. Let it first be remarked as to this phase of the objection that the objector, to have even the semblance of consistency, must deny the foreknowledge of God. For, if God foreknew everything, then He certainly foreknew that all men would not believe the gospel, since we see that all do not. And certainly no evangelical would say that God purposed to save those who reject the gospel. So, if the foreknowledge of God be true, then God purposed to save only a part of Adam's race, believers. Hence consistency demands that the Arminian surrender either this phase of the objection or else surrender the foreknowledge of God. He cannot be logical and hold both.
(3) The doctrine of a limited atonement.
This was touched on in relation to the sincerity of God's general call through the gospel in the previous chapter. However we give it further brief notice. If one is going before a large number of people to offer to each one of them a ten-dollar bill, and he has inerrant knowledge before hand that only a hundred out of that number will accept his offer, need he in order to make a sincere offer to all have more than one hundred ten-dollar bills? Surely not. Knowing that he has a sufficient number to supply all that will accept the offer, he can most freely and sincerely say, "Let every one of you that desires a ten-dollar bill come to me and I will give you one." Is it not manifest to all who can think logically that, in a case such as is described above, the failure of all the people except the hundred to receive a ten-dollar bill would be due to their refusal of the offer, and not to lack of provision?
God's general call is in appearance no more than it is in reality. And He appears to intend no more than He does actually intend. This does not appear as something that all men can respond to nor as something that will enable men to come to Christ or that will necessarily impel them to come. Nor does this call appear to affirm that God has made a futile provision of salvation for those who persist in unbelief. In this call God appears to intend that all men are welcome if they will come; that all who come will be received. He actually intends just this. It is just as much a Bible truth that all who come to Christ will be saved as it is that only the elect will be saved. We can heartily and gladly subscribe to the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith in saying that "nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth except his own inherent depravity and voluntary refusal to submit to the Lord Jesus Christ." In other words, these are the things that send the sinner to Hell.
...
The Inward Call is always effective.
The following Scriptures refer to the inward call: Acts 2:39; Rom. 1:6; 8.28,30; 9:11,24; 1 Cor. 1:1,26; 7:15; Gal. 1:15; 5:8; Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Thess. 2:14; 2 Tim. 1:9; Heb. 9:15; 1 Pet. 1.15; 2:9; 3:9; 5:10; 2 Pet. 1:3,10; Jude 1. Some of these Scriptures, as has been indicated already, seem to allude to both the inward and outward call.
1. THIS CALL IS A DIRECT CALL THROUGH THE SPIRIT
The Holy Spirit takes the preached gospel and opening the heart of the sinner (Acts 16:14), applies the word to the heart in regenerating power. It is then, and only then, that man is able to understand and receive the things of the Spirit of God. Thus the inward call is also through the gospel, but it is through the gospel as applied by the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures touching on this work of the Spirit through the word will be given when we study regeneration.
2. THIS CALL IS PARTICULAR
By means of it the chosen objects of God's saving grace are singled out. The difference here between the outward and the inward calls may be imperfectly illustrated by the difference between a general invitation extended by a church to the people of a community to attend its services and the personal invitations that are extended to particular individuals by the membership of the church. Of course, as we have said, this only imperfectly illustrates the difference between God's two calls. Rom. 8:30 shows the particularity of this call.
3. THIS CALL IS ALWAYS EFFECTIVE
It is manifest that the Scriptures given at the beginning of the discussion of this call refer to an effective and efficient call. This call is never resisted; yet, in responding to it, man acts voluntarily and freely. See chapter on "The Free Agency of Man." The effectiveness of this call is shown by Rom. 8:28, 30; 1 Cor. 1:24.
We are elected and chosen by God to be found in Christ first!
37818
Well-Known Member
Scripture please.