"Believing is the consequence of the new birth"

[Van]

Yet another Falselogy thread, denying the 13 verses that teach God bestows His blessings including election, redemption and regeneration (rebirth) through or by way of our credited faith. Thus our faith precedes the bestowal of regeneration. Any claim otherwise is nonsense.

 

[Judith]

John 1:13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Men that believe in Jesus Christ, to the effectual receiving of Jesus Christ, they are born to it. He does not say they shall be born to it, but they are born to it--born of God unto God and the things of God, before he receives God to eternal salvation. ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.’ Now, unless he be born of God, he cannot see it: suppose the kingdom of God be what it will, he cannot see it before he be begotten of God. Suppose it be the gospel, he cannot see it before he be brought into a state of regeneration. Believing is the consequence of the new birth; ‘not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of God."

- from Mr. Bunyan's Last Sermon, preached on August 19, 1688, preached at Mr. Gramman's meeting-house in London

John Bunyan preached this sermon just 12 days before he died. The entire, rather brief, sermon can be found here: Bunyan's Last Sermon - Chapel Library

May I ask a question? When a person is born again does the Spirit of God enter him/her? In other words are they born of the Spirit?

 

[canadyjd]

You claim to trust in the sovereignty of God and yet you refuse to allow God to be sovereign. But then again you do think your part of a special group that was picked out before the foundation of the world so you really do not have any credibility to comment on the meaning of any passage or doctrine. You have been thoroughly deceived.

I don’t respond to your posts unless you quote me.

Your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” is heresy, imo, and I rarely use that word when.I disagree with someone.

I won’t respond to your posts as long as you don’t quote me. If you quote me, I’ll remind any who cares about biblical truth that you believe “many are saved having never heard the gospel” and they can decide for themselves if your views can be trusted.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

May I ask a question? When a person is born again does the Spirit of God enter him/her? In other words are they born of the Spirit?

I know you asked KenH and I won’t speak for him but will give my opinion.

God Holy Spirit enters a person (indwells) when the person believes in Christ onto salvation.

Prior to that, God Holy Spirit regenerates the person which allows them to believe.

Some see this “process” as essentially instantaneous and view the “steps” of the process as a logical order that results in salvation (right relationship with God)

Hope that helps

peace to you

 

[Judith]

I know you asked KenH and I won’t speak for him but will give my opinion.

God Holy Spirit enters a person (indwells) when the person believes in Christ onto salvation.

Prior to that, God Holy Spirit regenerates the person which allows them to believe.

Some see this “process” as essentially instantaneous and view the “steps” of the process as a logical order that results in salvation (right relationship with God)

Hope that helps

peace to you

I thank you for trying to answer but that is not what I asked. We will see if KenH responds

 

[canadyjd]

I thank you for trying to answer but that is not what I asked. We will see if KenH responds

I make a distinction between “indwelling” Holy Spirit and regeneration.

When Jesus says you must be “born again” is He referring to the completed “process” of salvation that results in indwelling Holy Spirit or is He referring to regeneration which leads to salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit?

Perhaps it is futile to make such a distinction when the work of God Holy Spirit is so intertwined in all aspects of salvation from start to finish.

From a pure logical standpoint, regeneration precedes salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit and the whole process can be referred to as being “born agsin”.

peace to you

 

[37818]

. . . Holy Spirit regenerates the person which allows them to believe. . . .

Do you have a passage of Scripture that explicitly teaches that?

 

[canadyjd]

Do you have a passage of Scripture that explicitly teaches that?

Yes

peace to you

 

[37818]

Yes

peace to you

So what is said Scripture reference which explicitly teaches the Holy Spirit must regenerate a person in order for a person to believe?

 

[canadyjd]

So what is said Scripture reference which explicitly teaches the Holy Spirit must regenerate a person in order for a person to believe?

John 3:1-10 or so tells us that those that are “born again” do so by the will of God Holy Spirit

John 16 tells us that God Holy Spirit guides us into all truth

1 Corinthians 2 tells us God reveals the mysteries of God to us by God Holy Spirit and the natural man cannot understand spiritual things.

Olus the many passages that speak of the “quickening” of a person by God Holy Spirit.

Reviewing the whole of scripture, it is clear God Holy Spirit causes us to be “born again” according to His will and then leads us into all truth concerning the things of God which someone who has not been “born agsin” cannot understand.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

I don’t respond to your posts unless you quote me.

Your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” is heresy, imo, and I rarely use that word when.I disagree with someone.

I won’t respond to your posts as long as you don’t quote me. If you quote me, I’ll remind any who cares about biblical truth that you believe “many are saved having never heard the gospel” and they can decide for themselves if your views can be trusted.

peace to you

Well It looks like you deny scripture again. How do you deal with Abraham, Enoch, Able, Noah, Sarah etc. According to you they are not saved.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

But then again I just trust the bible not your philosophy. So you can say whatever you want as it will not change the facts will it. People were saved without hearing of Christ Jesus. And they can still be saved without that knowledge or do you not think God is capable of doing that?

There's two things that every man is aware of that all humans have a sense of accountability for.

There is a Creator

Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

And Morality

Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Rom 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

So there's a knowledge of God and there's a knowledge of morality and there is of course in that an awareness that you failed. Obviously an unbeliever who has never heard any of this information from the Bible could respond to the internal awareness of God from creation and conscience this is what we call General Revelation.

But of course you will reject scripture because it does not fit your theology.

 

[37818]

John 3:1-10 or so tells us that those that are “born again” do so by the will of God Holy Spirit

John 16 tells us that God Holy Spirit guides us into all truth

1 Corinthians 2 tells us God reveals the mysteries of God to us by God Holy Spirit and the natural man cannot understand spiritual things.

Olus the many passages that speak of the “quickening” of a person by God Holy Spirit.

Reviewing the whole of scripture, it is clear God Holy Spirit causes us to be “born again” according to His will and then leads us into all truth concerning the things of God which someone who has not been “born agsin” cannot understand.

peace to you

None of those pages teach regeneration prior to belief.

 

[percho]

May I ask a question? When a person is born again does the Spirit of God enter him/her? In other words are they born of the Spirit?

IMHO

for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; Rom 8:19

13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live; vi Fut midD 2 Pl
14-16 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God; for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, 'Abba -- Father.' The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;
23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Luke 20:36 for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

Gal 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
By the Spirit, I assume Heb 12:22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
Isa 66:8,9 Who hath heard anything like this? Who hath seen anything like these? Is earth caused to bring forth in one day? Born is a nation at once? For she hath been pained, Zion also hath borne her sons. 'Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, 'Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God.

Question? When you were conceived of your mother were you born of flesh?

 

[percho]

John 3:1-10 or so tells us that those that are “born again” do so by the will of God Holy Spirit

John 16 tells us that God Holy Spirit guides us into all truth

1 Corinthians 2 tells us God reveals the mysteries of God to us by God Holy Spirit and the natural man cannot understand spiritual things.

Olus the many passages that speak of the “quickening” of a person by God Holy Spirit.

Reviewing the whole of scripture, it is clear God Holy Spirit causes us to be “born again” according to His will and then leads us into all truth concerning the things of God which someone who has not been “born agsin” cannot understand.

peace to you

I like the following in the context of belief of truth.

and when He may come -- the Spirit of truth -- He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you; John 16:13

And one of someone's on the forum favorite verses:
And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in(to) sanctification of Spirit, and belief of truth, 2 Thes 2:13 YLT Modified by me from- in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

IMHO Spirit of Truth is given as gift before belief of truth.

 

[Judith]

I make a distinction between “indwelling” Holy Spirit and regeneration.

When Jesus says you must be “born again” is He referring to the completed “process” of salvation that results in indwelling Holy Spirit or is He referring to regeneration which leads to salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit?

Perhaps it is futile to make such a distinction when the work of God Holy Spirit is so intertwined in all aspects of salvation from start to finish.

From a pure logical standpoint, regeneration precedes salvation and indwelling Holy Spirit and the whole process can be referred to as being “born agsin”.

peace to you

IMHO

for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; Rom 8:19

13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live; vi Fut midD 2 Pl
14-16 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God; for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, 'Abba -- Father.' The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;
23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

Luke 20:36 for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

Gal 4:26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
By the Spirit, I assume Heb 12:22 But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
Isa 66:8,9 Who hath heard anything like this? Who hath seen anything like these? Is earth caused to bring forth in one day? Born is a nation at once? For she hath been pained, Zion also hath borne her sons. 'Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, 'Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God.

Question? When you were conceived of your mother were you born of flesh?

No disrespect but that is the biggest bunch of gibberish I have ever seen.

 

[Revmitchell]

Being dead, there is no way to respond in a positive manner to the gospel. A dead physical corpse will refuse a cold drink of water as there is nothing it can do but refuse it, just as those spiritually dead can do nothing other than to refuse the gospel of Christ.

A dead physical corps can neither accept cold water nor reject it. It is s self defeating argument

 

[canadyjd]

Well It looks like you deny scripture again. How do you deal with Abraham, Enoch, Able, Noah, Sarah etc. According to you they are not saved.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

But then again I just trust the bible not your philosophy. So you can say whatever you want as it will not change the facts will it. People were saved without hearing of Christ Jesus. And they can still be saved without that knowledge or do you not think God is capable of doing that?

There's two things that every man is aware of that all humans have a sense of accountability for.

There is a Creator

Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

And Morality

Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Rom 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

So there's a knowledge of God and there's a knowledge of morality and there is of course in that an awareness that you failed. Obviously an unbeliever who has never heard any of this information from the Bible could respond to the internal awareness of God from creation and conscience this is what we call General Revelation.

But of course you will reject scripture because it does not fit your theology.

Your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” renders all of your other opinions on scripture to be questionable at best.

The OT saints were saved by God’s grace. They believed God’s promise concerning the coming Messiah. They did hear and accept the gospel (good news) of the coming Messiah (Christ). Your arguments against my beliefs are based on biblical ignorance which has caused you to fall into serious error.

I’ve explained these biblical truths to you on several occasions, but your blindness to truth and your propensity to regurgitate accusations that have been biblical disproven continues unabated.

This is why I don’t respond to your posts unless you quote me.

Why don’t you take the hint and quit quoting me?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

No disrespect but that is the biggest bunch of gibberish I have ever seen.

Perhaps you could elaborate specifically on what is “gibberish”

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I like the following in the context of belief of truth…..

IMHO Spirit of Truth is given as gift before belief of truth.

This is something I could study more on.

Certainly God Holy Spirit acts/works upon the person prior to salvation… in regeneration, drawing, convicting of sin and guiding into truth.

Bur does God Holy Spirit indwell prior to faith?

I see salvation as a right relationship with God that is entered into by faith in Jesus. At that point, Holy Spirit indwells as the “pledge promise” from God that the person is now secure in Christ.

That makes the most logical sense to me, if I were forced to articulate an order of salvation.

It could very well be the “process” is near instantaneous.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

I make a distinction between “indwelling” Holy Spirit and regeneration.

you should they are not the same thing.