"Believing is the consequence of the new birth"

[Silverhair]

Your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” renders all of your other opinions on scripture to be questionable at best.

The OT saints were saved by God’s grace. They believed God’s promise concerning the coming Messiah. They did hear and accept the gospel (good news) of the coming Messiah (Christ). Your arguments against my beliefs are based on biblical ignorance which has caused you to fall into serious error.

I’ve explained these biblical truths to you on several occasions, but your blindness to truth and your propensity to regurgitate accusations that have been biblical disproven continues unabated.

This is why I don’t respond to your posts unless you quote me.

Why don’t you take the hint and quit quoting me?

peace to you

Your belief that “many are saved having never heard the gospel” renders all of your other opinions on scripture to be questionable at best.

Do you not think that the prophets and the various saints mentioned in the OT we saved or what about the 7000 that did not bow a knee to baal 1Ki 19:18. Would that not be many?

The OT saints were saved by God’s grace.

I agree we are all saved by the grace of God and that in response to trusting in Him.

They believed God’s promise concerning the coming Messiah.

I can agree that some of them would have had an understanding that Messiah was coming but not all of them would. But all did respond to the light they were given and trust in God.

They did hear and accept the gospel (good news) of the coming Messiah (Christ).

Now that would be an impossibility as none of them knew about the good news/gospel. That only became a possibility after the cross. The good news is the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. That was not something that the OT saints would have understood.

Your arguments against my beliefs are based on biblical ignorance which has caused you to fall into serious error.

No my arguments are based on what you and other Calvinists have stated. You may think that the bible supports your view but most Christians would disagree with you.

I’ve explained these biblical truths to you on several occasions, but your blindness to truth and your propensity to regurgitate accusations that have been biblical disproven continues unabated.

As I said before what you consider as support for your view has been shown to not do what you require. But you are determined to think that way but I, using my free will, have rejected your arguments as not valid. I could say the same thing to you re: your blindness to truth, regurgitate accusations etc. But then we are going to get nowhere.

This is why I don’t respond to your posts unless you quote me.

Why don’t you take the hint and quit quoting me?

peace to you

Why? Don't you think your view is worth defending?

 

[percho]

No disrespect but that is the biggest bunch of gibberish I have ever seen.

May I ask a few?

for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; Rom 8:19

Those sons/children presently have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of adoption, correct? What does the revelation have to do with the creation? V 21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

V 22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.
Are those birthing words?
V 23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;
Are we groaning to be birthed?

In V21 where it speaks of, "the glory," is that the same glory we are heirs of not yet inheritors of in verse 17? Is that the glory spoken of in Phil 3:20,21 who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory,.
At his coming?

Romans 8:11
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead [ Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, ] doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

Is that speaking of the Spirit of Adoption?

When, when will the Spirit so change the dead and alive?

8:29
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; ???? So born?

Luke 36:20?

Back before we got to smart for our britches, when was one's child manifested as male or female.

 

[canadyjd]

you should they are not the same thing.

And so we agree

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

….
But all did respond to the light they were given and trust in God….?

That belief is the foundation of your error.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

That belief is the foundation of your error.

peace to you

Your lack of trust in the sovereignty of God is the foundation of your error.

 

[KenH]

Also as one who says God has determined all things, He may heave determined that you think you are saved but in reality your not. That is the reality of your theology.

My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ.

So unless Christ can change - WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE - my hope, my assurance, my confidence cannot be destroyed.

I will share what has become my favorite hymn. (emphasis mine)

To the tune of "Brethren, We Have Met to Worship"

Glory, glory, I'm forgiven,
All my sins are washed away.
Christ, by His great blood atonement,
All my sin has put away.
Sin imputed to my Savior,
When He died upon the tree.
As the Substitute for sinners,
God will not impute to me.

Glory, glory, I'm accepted,
Robed in Christ's own righteousness.
I'm a child, an heir of heaven,
Saved by God's almighty grace.
Christ's obedience to the Father
Is imputed now to me.
In God's sight I'm pure and holy,
He declares me so to be.

Glory, glory, I'll not perish,
In Christ's hands I am secure.
He who saved me, sure, will keep me,
By God's grace I shall endure.
This is not a vain presumption,
I just take Him at His word.
Christ has sworn, "They shall not perish
who believe on Me their Lord."

 

[Revmitchell]

My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ.

This reasoning is a fallacy. No one puts their trust and hope in themselves. When we give a gift to a person do we also say that the person who received the gift took part in giving the gift to themselves? We do not. The total credit goes to the person who decided to give the gift, bought the gift, and made the gift available. Credit never goes to the person who receives the gift simply because they reached out and received the gift. You are trying to apply an inconsistent logic to salvation where it dies not get applied to anything else.

the Bible says salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23) It also gives instructions on how to receive this gift (Romans 10:9-17) The receiving of the gift doesn't then give credit to the receiver of the gift. It became a gift the moment the giver offered it. What happens after that doesn't change that fact.

 

[KenH]

May I ask a question? When a person is born again does the Spirit of God enter him/her? In other words are they born of the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit invincibly calls those God chose before the foundation of the world through the gospel message("the power of God unto salvation" - Romans 1:16) and gives them spiritual life and brings them to "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" - Acts of the Apostles 20:21).

Yes, the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer. "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." - John 14:16-17 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." - Romans 8:9

 

[KenH]

This reasoning is a fallacy. No one puts their trust and hope in themselves.

How is my reasoning fallacious in my post? What did I say in that particular post that you disagree with?

 

[Revmitchell]

How is my reasoning fallacious in my post? What did I say in that particular post that you disagree with?

Sigh, I just explained it go back and reread my post. Not sure why that needs explaining.

 

[KenH]

Sigh, I just explained it go back and reread my post. Not sure why that needs explaining.

Again, what do you disagree with in what you quoted - "My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ."

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, what do you disagree with in what you quoted - "My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ."

Again, go reread my post. I made it clear.

 

[KenH]

Again, go reread my post. I made it clear.

I will give you another chance to answer my question about just what you quoted - not some other post that I or anyone else previously posted in this thread or any other place at any other time on this board. Tell me what specific word(s) or phrase(s) you disagree with in these five sentences:

"My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ."

 

[Revmitchell]

I will give you another chance to answer my question about just what you quoted - not some other post that I or anyone else previously posted in this thread or any other place at any other time on this board. Tell me what specific word(s) or phrase(s) you disagree with in these five sentences:

"My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ."

Here maybe you can understand it better if I repost it and bolden it.


"
This reasoning is a fallacy. No one puts their trust and hope in themselves. When we give a gift to a person do we also say that the person who received the gift took part in giving the gift to themselves? We do not. The total credit goes to the person who decided to give the gift, bought the gift, and made the gift available. Credit never goes to the person who receives the gift simply because they reached out and received the gift. You are trying to apply an inconsistent logic to salvation where it dies not get applied to anything else.

the Bible says salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23) It also gives instructions on how to receive this gift (Romans 10:9-17) The receiving of the gift doesn't then give credit to the receiver of the gift. It became a gift the moment the giver offered it. What happens after that doesn't change that fact.

 

[KenH]

This reasoning is a fallacy. No one puts their trust and hope in themselves.

Where in those five sentences did I say that I put my trust and hope in myself? Sir, I did not.

Nor in those five sentences did I refer to anyone other than myself.

 

[Revmitchell]

Where in those five sentences did I say that I put my trust and hope in myself? Sir, I did not.

I haven't said you did. Not sure where this comes from.

Nor in those five sentences did I refer to anyone other than myself.

Nope you didn't. But that is the trick used around here make. vague implication and then say you accused no one of it when in fact you did by implication. It happens a lot around here. Now, If you can prove me wrong and how me that you do not believe that those who are not reformed believe in a false gospel (therefore they are not saved) or that you believe those with whom you disagree with believe that their hope is in themselves rather than God, then I will stand corrected. However you said:

My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works."

To another poster implying that that post, and by association anyone else who holds tot heir same position, does put their hope in themselves. So quit the word game here.

 

[KenH]

Now, If you can prove me wrong and how me that you do not believe that those who are not reformed believe in a false gospel

Since I am not "Reformed" perhaps you should ask someone who is "Reformed" if anyone who is not "Reformed" believes a false gospel. I will not presume to answer for them.

 

[Revmitchell]

Since I am not "Reformed" perhaps you should ask someone who is "Reformed" if anyone who is not "Reformed" believes a false gospel. I will not presume to answer for them.

Got it. You cannot answer it.

 

[KenH]

Got it. You cannot answer it.

Got it. You want to lump me into the "Reformed" camp and that the fact that I am not "Reformed" destroys the paradigm you operate under.

 

[Revmitchell]

Got it. You want to lump me into the "Reformed" camp and that the fact that I am not "Reformed" destroys the paradigm you operate under.

Well you can identify however you wish but the theology you have been espousing is equal to the reformed camp. However, That is obfuscation on your part. I I have resposted my post and emboldened the exact words to help you understand my words more celery, I reposted your exact words to point to exactly what I was responding too and het here we are. You have ignored all of those specifics and obfuscated on this. You have yet to actually respond to my words and to the main thought of my post.