"Believing is the consequence of the new birth"

[KenH]

Well you can identify however you wish but the theology you have been espousing is equal to the reformed camp.

I might agree with some of what, say, the Reformed Church in America, teaches - just as I might agree with some of what is taught in the typical Southern Baptist Church. That does not make me "Reformed", nor does it make me "Southern Baptist". Thus, I would not presume to answer on behalf of "Reformed" or "Southern Baptist" folks. I would agree with any points that someone makes that are in agreement with the sound doctrine of the Bible, God's Word.

 

[Revmitchell]

I might agree with some of what, say, the Reformed Church in America, teaches - just as I might agree with some of what is taught in the typical Southern Baptist Church. That does not make me "Reformed", nor does it make me "Southern Baptist". Thus, I would not presume to answer on behalf of "Reformed" or "Southern Baptist" folks.

Can't answer my post. Got it

 

[KenH]

Can't answer my post. Got it

Got it. You can't handle that I don't fit into your paradigm that you operate under.

 

[KenH]

Can't answer my post. Got it

You can't handle that you can't lump me into one of your pre-arranged categories.

 

[Revmitchell]

Got it. You can't handle that I don't fit into your paradigm that you operate under.

Sigh, weather or not I was corrected in how you identify is irrelevant to the very specific point I made. You have avoided responding to the specific point. Why is that? Here it is again:


"This reasoning is a fallacy. No one puts their trust and hope in themselves." When we give a gift to a person do we also say that the person who received the gift took part in giving the gift to themselves? We do not. The total credit goes to the person who decided to give the gift, bought the gift, and made the gift available. Credit never goes to the person who receives the gift simply because they reached out and received the gift. You are trying to apply an inconsistent logic to salvation where it dies not get applied to anything else.

the Bible says salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23) It also gives instructions on how to receive this gift (Romans 10:9-17) The receiving of the gift doesn't then give credit to the receiver of the gift. It became a gift the moment the giver offered it. What happens after that doesn't change that fact."

I quoted your specific words and why I see your reasoning as a fallacy. You thus far have been unable to respond.

 

[KenH]

"This reasoning is a fallacy. No one puts their trust and hope in themselves."

I did not state that I put my trust and hope in myself. Therefore, your claim that what I stated is a fallacy is proven false.

 

[Revmitchell]

I did not state that I put my trust and hope in myself. Therefore, your claim that what I stated is a fallacy is proven false.

I did not say you did. This is the second time you have falsely accused me of this. Now reread the post and respond to my very specific claim.

 

[KenH]

I did not say you did. This is the second time you have falsely accused me of this. Now reread the post and respond to my very specific claim.

Let's see if we can get off of this merry-go-round. I invite you to read my post above(#72) in this thread.

 

[Revmitchell]

Let's see if we can get off of this merry-go-round. I invite you to read my post above(#72) in this thread.

The merry go round has been created solely by you. All that is needed is for you to read my post with a very specific issue raised and respond to that. This is the last time I will attempt this in an effort to get off your "merrygoround"

 

[KenH]

The merry go round has been created solely by you. All that is needed is for you to read my post with a very specific issue raised and respond to that. This is the last time I will attempt this in an effort to get off your "merrygoround"

I invite you to read my post above(#72) in this thread. If that post doesn't suffice to further this conversation along in a more productive way, then I suggest that we both stop responding to each other.

 

[Revmitchell]

I invite you to read my post above(#72) in this thread. If that post doesn't suffice to further this conversation along in a more productive way, then I suggest that we both stop responding to each other.

Well I agree, you are unwilling to move this conversation in a more productive way. Be sure of this. This topic will be brought up to you again in the future.

 

[Silverhair]

My hope is not in my believing, not in my repenting of dead works. My hope, my trust is in God and His Word. My hope is in Christ. He is my assurance. Therefore, my confidence is in someone outside of me - it is in Christ.

So unless Christ can change - WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE - my hope, my assurance, my confidence cannot be destroyed.

I will share what has become my favorite hymn. (emphasis mine)

To the tune of "Brethren, We Have Met to Worship"

Glory, glory, I'm forgiven,
All my sins are washed away.
Christ, by His great blood atonement,
All my sin has put away.
Sin imputed to my Savior,
When He died upon the tree.
As the Substitute for sinners,
God will not impute to me.

Glory, glory, I'm accepted,
Robed in Christ's own righteousness.
I'm a child, an heir of heaven,
Saved by God's almighty grace.
Christ's obedience to the Father
Is imputed now to me.
In God's sight I'm pure and holy,
He declares me so to be.

Glory, glory, I'll not perish,
In Christ's hands I am secure.
He who saved me, sure, will keep me,
By God's grace I shall endure.
This is not a vain presumption,
I just take Him at His word.
Christ has sworn, "They shall not perish
who believe on Me their Lord."

Ken I am not questioning whether you think you are saved or not, that is not the intent of my comment.
"Calvinist say that God saves them before they have any faith and then He gives them faith. Also as one who says God has determined all things, He may heave determined that you think you are saved but in reality your not. That is the reality of your theology. You have to hope that God is not playing a trick on you just as J Calvin said."

What I am questioning is Calvinism. The idea that God saves one before they even have faith and that they are then given faith by Him is something that has to be read into the bible.

 

[KenH]

What I am questioning is Calvinism. The idea that God saves one before they even have faith

That is not what I believe. When one is saved they have repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ(Acts of the Apostles 20:21). The fact that God chose the elect before the world began does not negate the necessity of hearing the gospel(Romans 10:14-15), it does not negate the necessity of faith and repentance of dead works, it does not negate the necessity of walking by the Spirit(Galatians 5:25).

God does not simply excuse the sins of the elect and pretend like they don't have to be dealt with; thus the necessity of the propitiation of all of their sins by Christ on the cross.

 

[Silverhair]

That is not what I believe. When one is saved they have repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ(Acts 20:21). The fact that God chose the elect before the world began does not negate the necessity of hearing the gospel(Romans 10:14-15), of faith and repentance of dead works, it does not negate the necessity of walking by the Spirit(Galatians 5:25).

God does not simply excuse the sins of the elect and pretend like they don't have to be dealt with; thus the necessity of the propitiation of all of their sins by Christ on the cross.

That is not what I believe.

Ken, as I said it is Calvinism that is the problem. In what I have read and heard from many Calvinists that theology does not comport with scripture.

When one is saved they have repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ(Acts 20:21).

Loraine Boettner
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." So Boettner has a person saved before they believe which is contrary to what the bible says.

Do you believe these scriptures are true? I do.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The fact that God chose the elect before the world began does not negate the necessity of hearing the gospel(Romans 10:14-15), of faith and repentance of dead works, it does not negate the necessity of walking by the Spirit(Galatians 5:25).

Actually He did not choose the elect before the foundation of the world. You leave out two critical words “in Him” Jesus Christ is the elect one if one is not in Him they are not elect, and the only way to be in Him is through faith in Him. And when you are in Him then you are saved.

God does not simply excuse the sins of the elect and pretend like they don't have to be dealt with; thus the necessity of the propitiation of all of their sins by Christ on the cross.

I agree God does not just excuse sins they have to be and were dealt with at the cross.

1Jn_2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So, if I am reading your post correctly, and I am sure I am, you have just said that everyone has their sins paid for at the cross. Since you have Christ Jesus deal with sin at the cross we are presented with two options
1] All men are part of the elect and all men will be saved
2] the sins of all people were dealt with at the cross and thus all men can be saved through faith in Christ Jesus.
Which option do you choose? One is biblical the other is not.

 

[KenH]

So, if I am reading your post correctly, and I am sure I am, you have just said that everyone has their sins paid for at the cross. Since you have Christ Jesus deal with sin at the cross we are presented with two options
1] All men are part of the elect and all men will be saved
2] the sins of all people were dealt with at the cross and thus all men can be saved through faith in Christ Jesus.
Which option do you choose? One is biblical the other is not.

I believe the record of the Bible - Christ Jesus is the propitiation only for the sins of all of God's elect(comprised of both Jews and Gentiles - or the "world" as used in 1 John 2:2); the sins of the elect being imputed to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness being imputed to the elect, all of God's elect will be saved.

 

[KenH]

Ken, as I said it is Calvinism that is the problem.

Well, maybe ask a Calvinist to defend Calvinism, then, as I am not a Calvinist nor Reformed.

 

[KenH]

Do you believe these scriptures are true?

I believe all of God's Word.

 

[KenH]

Christ is the elect one if one is not in Him they are not elect

Such teaching makes man sovereign over his own salvation. That goes against the teaching of God's Word that God is absolutely totally sovereign. The Creator does what He wants with His creation, not the other way around.

 

[Silverhair]

I believe the record of the Bible - Christ Jesus is the propitiation only for the sins of all of God's elect(comprised of both Jews and Gentiles - or the "world" as used in 1 John 2:2); the sins of the elect being imputed to Christ and Christ's perfect righteousness being imputed to the elect, all of God's elect will be saved.

Ken, your reading "elect" into world in 1Jn 2:2 is not tenable. That view comes from your Calvinist theology not from the bible.

You have just proven that the Calvinist has to change the meaning of words or disregard context to make their errant view fit the bible. Do a word study of "world" in John's writings. What amazes me the most is that you {Calvinists} seem to think that the Holy Spirit does not know the difference between the words "world" G2889 and "elect" G1588.

 

[Silverhair]

Such teaching makes man sovereign over his own salvation. That goes against the teaching of God's Word that God is absolutely totally sovereign. The Creator does what He wants with His creation, not the other way around.

"Christ is the elect one if one is not in Him they are not elect" When you say this goes against God's word are you saying there is another way to become one of the elect? The bible is clear that being in Christ is the only way and that is through faith.