Salvation and the Senses

The physical body is the tabernacle of the soul, according to 2 Cor 5, and OT types. It is corruptible and cannot be saved. It is the soul that must be redeemed and, in time, a new glorified body like unto the glorious body of Jesus Christ will be given to each individual born again son of God, in which both the Spirit of Christ, who is life, and the redeemed soul will tabernacle for all eternity. As the blood gives life to the sons of Adam, the Spirit of God and of Christ gives life to the sons of God. There will be no blood in the glorified body because Jesus said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

1) The first is hearing: Ears:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Since God is not preaching the gospel to anyone, it is imperative that one has a preacher through whom he hears the gospel.

2) Taste: Mouth

Job 12:11 Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him

3) Breath: Nose:
Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The breath of God is his Spirit.

Touch: Feeling

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

John calls Jesus two things in the verses above. The Word of God, V 1, and eternal life, V 2. They are the same. Peter calls the word of God eternal life.

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Eyes - Seeing (perceiving)

John 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

This is proven by the fact that no person during the ministry, none of whom were born again yet, understood or believed in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as being necessary for the salvation of the soul and as the entrance into the kingdom of God. This included his closest apostles. (see Mark 16).

So, the purpose of this thread is to briefly demonstrate that unsaved men are cognizant and must respond to God in repentance and faith through their senses and that the Reformed system is fundamentally wrong on the doctrines of man, salvation, and of God.

 

You are responding from ignorance concerning the new birth. If men could have been born again before the cross where the remedy for inherent sin, the blood of Christ, was shed, then there would have been no need for Jesus Christ to die on the cross. Consider;

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The promise of the Spirit come THROUGH Jesus Christ to believers in his gospel. One must hear the gospel to know what it is before he can believe in it.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (The promise is the Spirit and a gift is grace)
The divider between saved men and unsaved men is not ethereal election, but faith in Christ.

John wrote his gospel account about 60 years after the events. The verbs in John 1 are past tense verbs. John lived through the apostolic era and beyond. He is the only apostle who did. He knew what it meant to become a son of God when he wrote this record, but while he lived it, he did not know.

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

You do not seem to know what it means to be born again.

 

No, men were not born again before the cross. Men were "justified" by God, Jehovah, when they believed what he said to them before the cross, God "imputing" their faith for righteousness. This did not clear them of inherent sin. Only the blood of Christ could do that.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

If justified men, such as Abraham and Moses of the OT, were offering a blood sacrifice, after having been born again, it would insult God since reconciliation with him and the new birth is the purpose of the once for all time sacrifice of Christ and it would render the sacrifice of Christ as a vain offering..

Hebrews 10:18
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

The "these" are iniquities and sins;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The only thing that separates men from God is his sins.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Ex 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

The reason OT saints went to paradise in the center of the earth at death is because their sins were not washed away until the blood of Jesus Christ was shed and applied. A man cannot reside in the presence of God with sin in him.. And God cannot birth a sinner into his family by permanently residing in his body until and unless the sin is cleansed from him. See Titus 3: 5 and context here. Does the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse from sin? the answer is here.

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Sinners can be justified by believing God. It happened for 4000 years, but they cannot be born again until the sin is washed away by the blood of Christ.

Because faith is a principle that is engaged when a person does not have experiential knowledge.

 

I am confused by your reasoning. It seems by yours and brightframe52's comments that you do not understand the meaning of the new birth and how and when it is accomplished. The Spirit of Christ, who is poured out from heaven in Acts 2, after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, is the agency of the new birth. It is hard to believe that ones can have access to a King James Bible and apparently fellowship in a local church and attempt to teach others and yet do not know these things. Jesus Christ must be the sacrifice for sin before anyone can be born again because it is the same Spirit that lived in his body who will quicken ours. The Spirit is life, Ro 8:10.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I do not know what else to say. I was not prepared for this lack of understanding of the new testament.

 

There are two, and two only, sons of God in the 4000 years of the OT. They are Adam and Jesus. Both men had the Spirit of God dwelling in them and they are the only two men who did. Both men died spiritually, meaning the Spirit departed from their bodies. this is spiritual death. Death means separation and that is all it means. Adam died for his own sin and Christ died for the sin of the world. Adam's sin caused the penalty of eternal death of his whole family and the death of Jesus paid the penalty for all of Adam's family as the substitute, provided by God, and all who come to him by faith will be born into the family of God and will become children of God. Adam was made a living soul and Jesus was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

That Jesus Christ, the man, was dead for three days, his body laying uncorrupted in the tomb during that time, and was afterward quickened by the Spirit when his soul was reunited with his body, and he being glorified by the Spirit and by his power, came up from the grave. This is called the firstborn from the dead. It is the first ever spiritual birth and is designated so in more than one scripture reference. Your position denies his preeminence. Here are two divine witnesses to each of these two points.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also (additionally) quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
____________

Co 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The image of Jesus Christ, God's son is trinitarian, soul, body, and Holy Ghost. Three in one and one in three, which is the purpose of God in this age.
__________

Jesus Christ had two births, as we must have if we are to enter into the presence of God. He had one physical birth at Bethlehem and was the ONLY begotten son of God. John 3:16. His second birth is recorded as being at the tomb when he rose from the dead. These following scriptures will prove this without a doubt.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

God said he begat his son at his resurrection and he was the firstborn from the dead, and he has assured us by the quote in Romans 8:29 that it was the first of many of its kind. There can be no doubt about this.

Now, my concern with you two Reformed teachers is that you are not telling the truth about Jesus and salvation and the new birth. You are guided in your comments by a religious system and all your scriptures that you present are skewed to make your system real. The scriptures in their context and definitions are not your authority on this subject. You are not submitting to them. It makes me reach a conclusion that you may not have ever read the entire Bible.

I hope that you can understand that there is no new birth in the scriptures or in history until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and that he will be exalted and magnified and glorified by these comments by which I am trying to demonstrate his preeminence in his church. Think about these things and pray and ask God if they are true.

 

Okay, but you are too intelligent not to see the logic and reasoning from the scriptures that I have presented to you. It seems a shame that you would ignore the truth when it smacks you up side the head, no?

 

Well, sometimes I am just flat out wrong and my last post could very well be evidence for it. But I think you are the only person on this forum that would dare to accuse me of being unbiblical when I was quoting the scriptures. How does that work?

 

Is it your teaching that only the prophets of Israel had the indwelling Holy Spirit during the days of the OT?