Jon, I am not sure how you get your interpretation from reading "Matthew 6:12. 'Forgive us our debts [Gk. opheilema] as we forgive our debtors.'"
Am I missing something in regards to the word debt (opheilema)?
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The Biblical Doctrine of Imputation
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Am I missing something in regards to the word debt (opheilema)?
I don't know if you are missing anything.
My argument is that the context of ὀφείλημα is a wrong or transgression rather than a debt in the sence of a financial or legal transaction.
Our sin wrongs God. They do not create in God a loss, or harm. I disagree with @Martin Marprelate in that I believe the context demands not a loss on God's part (requiring payment) but an affront on man's part that results in an unfavorable responce (judgment) from God.
How do you think the context demands your view rather than what "debt" actually means? I don't see how you justify ignoring the legal understanding of debt.
For several reasons.
First, Scripture repeatedly tells us to forgive one another as a condition that God will forgive us (Ephesians 4:32, Matthew 6:15, James 2:13, etc.). If the "model prayer" is speaking of debts in a financial-legal sence then this is the first occurrence.
Second, it is contrary to other passages dealing with repaying financial-legal debts. We are not to charge interest, however we are to give to those whom legal payment is due.
Third, forgiveness is essential in the spiritual aspect (forgiving trespasses). Jesus tells us, as stated above, that God's forgiveness is conditioned on us forgiving others. That the "model prayer" would deal with forgiveness in an entirely different manner and ignore so much of Scrioture is possible, but odd.
Fourth, considering this a debt in a financial-legal context rather than a transgression against God places God as vulnerable to man. I believe God is immutable and complete (granted, my own presupposition,, but it prevents me from entertaining your view).
Fifth, this debt is used in two situations - asking God to forgive our debts as we forgive the debts of others. This would have a very narrow application of only in a financial-legal sence. In a broader context, the one I believe, we are all to forgive those who wrong us as God forgives us for doing wrong.
I have no desire to carry on the discussion, but please do not attribute to me views that I do not hold.
I believe both that Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9,) AND that everyone who calls upon the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13).
Unlike many Calvinists and Arminians, I do not view Scripture as a set of options from which to choose. Nor do I believe Jonah 2:9 and Romans 10:13 are at odds.
I did not attribute to you anything that you did not say.
Why didn't you use the quote feature then?
I did. You said
But I did not attribute to you anything. I said what I believe, not what you believe.
Re-read the post....with your reading glasses on
I did. You said
But I did not attribute to you anything. I said what I believe, not what you believe.
Re-read the post....with your reading glasses on
No you put your reading glasses on and also do not attribute things to me that I did not write and do not believe.
I am not saying what you believe, only that you disagreed with me. You did disagree with me in my interpretation of "debt" in the "model prayer".
If you changed your mind, that's fine. But to day you never posted that my view was incorrect is not accurate.
KenH
Well-Known Member
They aren't.
I agree. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And that is, of course, men doing something (men calling on God).
This does not contradict salvation being of God, but many here have argued otherwise. Some have argued this is mushy theology, or emotional mumbo jumbo as those in need of saving are dead and cannot call upon the name of God.
KenH
Well-Known Member
QUOTE="JonC, post: 2812515, member: 12639"]I agree. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And that is, of course, men doing something (men calling on God).[/QUOTE]
Yep. The only way that any spiritually dead sinner can do so is by the Holy Spirit regenerating the sinner so that he can do so. Thus, salvation is of the LORD as the sinner did nothing of his own accord in a spiritually dead state. And any such truly saved sinner will not claim that he "did" anything. All of salvation is conditioned on Christ, and any claim that salvation is conditioned on a spiritually dead sinner doing something is not the gospel of Christ, but, as the apostle Paul called it, "another gospel" in Galatians 1:6-9.
Yep. The only way that any spiritually dead sinner can do so is by the Holy Spirit regenerating the sinner so that he can do so. Thus, salvation is of the LORD as the sinner did nothing of his own accord in a spiritually dead state. And any such truly saved sinner will not claim that he "did" anything. All of salvation is conditioned on Christ, and any claim that salvation is conditioned on a spiritually dead sinner doing something is not the gospel of Christ, but, as the apostle Paul called it, "another gospel" in Galatians 1:6-9.