Universalism a strawman argument.

[37818]

" know so salvation?"

You are entirely dependent on God alone to save, yet you are promoting your own reasoning as the means of knowing you are saved. Are you unaware that the heart is desperately wicked. Your reasoning could point to hell if you rely on it.

So by your reasoning we really cannot trust God's word. Because to do so is to use human reasoning.

We are trusting men we never knew who handed down the writings making the claims they are from God. Etc.


Titus 1:2.
1 John 5:9-13.

 

[AustinC]

So by your reasoning we really cannot trust God's word. Because to do so is to use human reasoning.

We are trusting men we never knew who handed down the writings making the claims they are from God. Etc.


Titus 1:2.
1 John 5:9-13.

So by your reasoning we really cannot trust God's word. Because to do so is to use human reasoning.

We are trusting men we never knew who handed down the writings making the claims they are from God. Etc.


Titus 1:2.
1 John 5:9-13.

God fully answers you and shows you that He chose you. You didn't choose God. If you cannot have full confidence in God, how then can you have confidence in yourself?

*1 Corinthians 1:18-31*
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

 

[37818]

God fully answers you and shows you that He chose you. You didn't choose God. If you cannot have full confidence in God, how then can you have confidence in yourself?

*1 Corinthians 1:18-31*
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

How you think you know anything comes before what one thinks one knows.

 

[AustinC]

How you think you know anything comes before what one thinks one knows.

LOL, you really won't trust God's word, will you. I keep providing scripture to you and you just won't accept what scripture tells you. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 is sufficient to answer your question.

 

[37818]

LOL, you really won't trust God's word, will you. I keep providing scripture to you and you just won't accept what scripture tells you. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 is suùfficient to answer your question.

My question? You think what you think you know (1 Corinthians 1:18-31) answers my question. What is my question? I have a know so salvation from God whom I have now known for 60 years. So what do you think my question was? It would seem you do not know or understand how you know.

1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

My question? You think what you think you know (1 Corinthians 1:18-31) answers my question. What is my question? I have a know so salvation from God whom I have now known for 60 years. So what do you think my question was? It would seem you do not know or understand how you know.

1 Corinthians 1:10, ". . . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . ."

LOL, you have just spoken in circles while saying nothing at all.
Ultimately you have zero support in scripture for a general redemption and if there was support, the end of your general redemption would be universalism. Therefore, general redemption is a fallacy.

 

[37818]

LOL, you have just spoken in circles while saying nothing at all.
Ultimately you have zero support in scripture for a general redemption and if there was support, the end of your general redemption would be universalism. Therefore, general redemption is a fallacy.

The strawman argument repeated will never make it to be true.

Luke 22:20-21, ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."

1 Timothy 2:3-6, ". . . For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ."

Hebrews 2:9, ". . . But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. . . ."

1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

1 John 4:14, ". . . And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. . . ."

1 John 5:9-13, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not liife. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

Titus 1:2, ". . . In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . ."

The know so salvation.

 

[AustinC]

The strawman argument repeated will never make it to be true.

Luke 22:20-21, ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."

1 Timothy 2:3-6, ". . . For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ."

Hebrews 2:9, ". . . But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. . . ."

1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."

1 John 4:14, ". . . And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. . . ."

1 John 5:9-13, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not liife. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

Titus 1:2, ". . . In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . ."

The know so salvation.

It is true, even though you cherrypick verses out of context.
The m. o. of free will theology is to avoid context at all cost and only share sentences that can be manipulated into saying what the context denies. Here you play that very game with verses that I have thoroughly addressed in context and shown you your error. Yet, here you go again, imagining that showing the same error will somehow get a different result.

 

[AVL1984]

It is true, even though you cherrypick verses out of context.
The m. o. of free will theology is to avoid context at all cost and only share sentences that can be manipulated into saying what the context denies. Here you play that very game with verses that I have thoroughly addressed in context and shown you your error. Yet, here you go again, imagining that showing the same error will somehow get a different result.

I believe it's the other way around. Calvinists are the one who use such circular reasoning that they don't get their point across. Redefining words doesn't help their cause any either! As usual, in your posts, all I see is the arrogance many have come to know and experience from "Calvin" worshippers.

 

[AustinC]

I believe it's the other way around. Calvinists are the one who use such circular reasoning that they don't get their point across. Redefining words doesn't help their cause any either! As usual, in your posts, all I see is the arrogance many have come to know and experience from "Calvin" worshippers.

Yet, I haven't been the one ignoring context in this thread or other threads when quoting scripture. I have been the one quoting the full context instead of one verse or just giving a verse reference with no context. That has consistently been you and 37 who have rejected context and refused to look at the full outcome of the theory of general redemption.
It's obvious why you won't look deeper at your assumptions. If you did you'd see universalism starring you in the mirror and you would have to abandon your theory.
I have provided passage after passage that shows you God's particular choice of you, yet you cannot abide the idea that God chose to love you and redeem you before you ever said "yes Lord."

 

[AVL1984]

Yet, I haven't been the one ignoring context in this thread or other threads when quoting scripture. I have been the one quoting the full context instead of one verse or just giving a verse reference with no context. That has consistently been you and 37 who have rejected context and refused to look at the full outcome of the theory of general redemption.
It's obvious why you won't look deeper at your assumptions. If you did you'd see universalism starring you in the mirror and you would have to abandon your theory.
I have provided passage after passage that shows you God's particular choice of you, yet you cannot abide the idea that God chose to love you and redeem you before you ever said "yes Lord."

I don't see anywhere that I've done what you've accused me on. Oh the arrogance you continue to show, and the false accusations to boot! Typical of the Calvinists. I'm far from a universalist...at least YOUR definition of one. Please, keep your emotions under control. You might have a heart attack. Nothing is "obvious" except your continued arrogance towards anyone who disagrees with you and your buddy, Calvin.

 

[37818]

It is true, even though you cherrypick verses out of context.
The m. o. of free will theology is to avoid context at all cost and only share sentences that can be manipulated into saying what the context denies. Here you play that very game with verses that I have thoroughly addressed in context and shown you your error. Yet, here you go again, imagining that showing the same error will somehow get a different result.

You do not know the difference between from a context and out of context.

Question, who among the "us" in 1 John 5:11 makes God a liar in 1 John 5:10?

 

[AustinC]

You do not know the difference between from a context and out of context.

Question, who among the "us" in 1 John 5:11 makes God a liar in 1 John 5:10?

Simple. Read the letter.
*1 John 5:1-12*

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Now connect it to John 3:3-15.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youdo not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Do you see the fact that God must cause you to be born again before you can believe?

Paul says the same thing.
*Ephesians 2:1-9*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[37818]

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

You didn't answer the question. Who among the "us" in 1 John 5:11 makes God a liar in 1 John 5:10?

 

[AustinC]

You didn't answer the question. Who among the "us" in 1 John 5:11 makes God a liar in 1 John 5:10?

You. You make God a liar when you refuse to acknowledge that He chose to cause you to be born again before you ever believed. I just provide 3 passages showing you your utter dependence on God choosing to cause you to be born again and here you are trying to say God is wrong. So, the answer is you.

 

[AVL1984]

You. You make God a liar when you refuse to acknowledge that He chose to cause you to be born again before you ever believed. I just provide 3 passages showing you your utter dependence on God choosing to cause you to be born again and here you are trying to say God is wrong. So, the answer is you.

Again, double talk...How can one make a decision if it's not their decision? If it's already been made for them, then it's not grace, it's slavery. Hebrews 11 talks about faith...and all these people had the option to believe and follow or not to believe and perish....Seems pretty straightforward to me.

 

[AustinC]

Again, double talk...How can one make a decision if it's not their decision? If it's already been made for them, then it's not grace, it's slavery. Hebrews 11 talks about faith...and all these people had the option to believe and follow or not to believe and perish....Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Simple.
You are locked in chains in a dungeon with no hope of escape (a slave to sin) and no hope of getting your shackles unlocked. A great warrior breaks in to the dungeon and chooses to break your chains and carry you to freedom. You had no option to believe or decide. Your hero came in and saved you.
Your response is one of great joy and praise to your warrior hero.

That is what Jesus did when he saved you. You were hopelessly chained by sin, with no chance of escape from your prison.

But God...

Let that humble you to realize what God did for you when he chose to set you free.

That, by the way, is unmerited favor...grace.

 

[AVL1984]

Simple.
You are locked in chains in a dungeon with no hope of escape (a slave to sin) and no hope of getting your shackles unlocked. A great warrior breaks in to the dungeon and chooses to break your chains and carry you to freedom. You had no option to believe or decide. Your hero came in and saved you.
Your response is one of great joy and praise to your warrior hero.

That is what Jesus did when he saved you. You were hopelessly chained by sin, with no chance of escape from your prison.

But God...

Let that humble you to realize what God did for you when he chose to set you free.

That, by the way, is unmerited favor...grace.

You may be right, you may be wrong. The same could be said for me, or anyone else on this forum. God's understanding isn't the same as ours. Your continued implication that I have no humility while flaunting of the applied knowledge of man to God's purposes is astounding, though. A little arrogant on your part. I don't think you have one iota of humility in your whole approach. Have a nice evening.

 

[AustinC]

You may be right, you may be wrong. The same could be said for me, or anyone else on this forum. God's understanding isn't the same as ours. Your continued implication that I have no humility while flaunting of the applied knowledge of man to God's purposes is astounding, though. A little arrogant on your part. I don't think you have one iota of humility in your whole approach. Have a nice evening.

This is a cop out on your part.
You and I were without hope, a slave to sin. We could not free ourselves from our bondage. God had to break in and set us free by his gracious choice to do so.
God is the cause. Our response in faith and belief is the effect of God breaking our chains and freeing us from our bondage. This is the gospel that God so loved you that he sent his son to you so that you would believe he has set you free.

Now, as for myself, I am confident of the gospel, that it is all God who has redeemed us and not our wise choice. I cannot compromise on the gospel. That can cause some to call me arrogant. And, there is no doubt that pride is lurking at my door as it is with everyone. CS Lewis rightly called pride "the Great Sin." I can receive that claim and bring it to God for forgiveness.

 

[37818]

You. You make God a liar when you refuse to acknowledge that He chose to cause you to be born again before you ever believed. I just provide 3 passages showing you your utter dependence on God choosing to cause you to be born again and here you are trying to say God is wrong. So, the answer is you.

So then are you accusing me of not being saved? Because I believe faith comes before regeneration. Per Ephesians 1:13, ". . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . .

You see I have believed ". . . the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. . . ." So your accusation here is false.