What was Christian's burden and how did it come to be?

[AustinC]

Was Christian already born of the Spirit while carrying his burden?
How did he get his burden in the 1st place? Was it before or after being born of the Spirit?

1 Corinthians 2:14-15

*1 Corinthians 2:14-15*
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
[QUOTE="kyredneck, post: 2817493, member: 9690"]Is there any mention of an 'evangelist' here?

No! There's absolutely no human involvement in the heavenly birth:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1[/QUOTE]
Was Christian born of the Spirit before he received his burden?

 

[kyredneck]

Was Christian born of the Spirit before he received his burden?

The natural man has no such burden. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[AustinC]

He got his burden the way we all get ours, at birth!... Brother Glen

Psalms 51: 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

How could Christian even know he had a burden without being born of the Spirit?

Ephesians 2: 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Why then does no one, whom Christian meets on his journey, have a burden? We only read of Christian having a burden. Two-tongues, ignorance, atheist, etc., none of them have a burden.

Why does Christian have a burden but the others don't?

 

[AustinC]

The natural man has no such burden. 1 Corinthians 2:14

So, you think Christian was saved while in the city of destruction, before the narrow gate, and before the cross?

 

[kyredneck]

So, you think Christian was saved while in the city of destruction, before the narrow gate, and before the cross?

I think Christian was 'made alive' long before he met evangelist.

 

[AustinC]

I think Christian was 'made alive' long before he met evangelist.

Is there anything in the text of Pilgrims Progress that gives you this thought or is it your understanding of scripture that informs your thought?

 

[AustinC]

I think Christian was 'made alive' long before he met evangelist.

Do you make a distinction between being made alive and being saved?
Could Christian have been made alive with Christ and seated in the heavenlies with Christ and still not be saved or have his burden removed?

 

[kyredneck]

Is there anything in the text of Pilgrims Progress that gives you this thought or is it your understanding of scripture that informs your thought?

I've forgotten far more than I know of the story.

Why does Christian have a burden but the others don't?

His 'time' had come. Galatians 1:15-16

 

[kyredneck]

Do you make a distinction between being made alive and being saved?

Do you make a distinction between regeneration and conversion?

 

[atpollard]

How did Christian become aware?

I don’t know … I never read the book.

 

[AustinC]

Do you make a distinction between regeneration and conversion?

No.
The term "conversion" is not, as far as I know, found in the Bible.
Being made alive, is regeneration and reconciliation with God.

What we see in Pilgrims Progress is that Christian has a burden on his back. Evangelist tells him to go to the wicket gate by the narrow way. Christian enters that narrow way with his burden still on. He goes to the house of the Interpreter. After leaving the Interpreters house he comes to the Hill of Deliverance where he sees Jesus on the Cross and his burden falls off, then rolls into a cave, never to be seen again.

So, what was Christians burden and how did it grow upon him?

We don't see others with this burden who remain in sin. What happened to Christian that his burden grew in him and weighed him down?

 

[AustinC]

I don’t know … I never read the book.

Here's a PDF and a link to an audiobook.
Pilgrim's Progress - John Bunyan - Full Classic Christian Audiobook

 

[kyredneck]

Do you make a distinction between regeneration and conversion?

No.

Prominent Baptist scholars down through the years have made that distinction, and, used that term. conversion. Example: Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion? : 9Marks

The term "conversion" is not, as far as I know, found in the Bible.

So? Neither is 'faith alone' found in the Bible, and that I know. Conversion simply means coming to faith in Christ.

Being made alive, is regeneration and reconciliation with God.

Is there scripture that defines it as such, or is that something you've put together on your own?

I'm content to let John 3:8 define it. Born from above/born of God/born of the Spirit/born of Jerusalem above, the mother of us all.

 

[AustinC]

Prominent Baptist scholars down through the years have made that distinction, and, used that term. conversion. Example: Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion? : 9Marks



So? Neither is 'faith alone' found in the Bible, and that I know. Conversion simply means coming to faith in Christ.



Is there scripture that defines it as such, or is that something you've put together on your own?

I'm content to let John 3:8 define it. Born from above/born of God/born of the Spirit/born of Jerusalem above, the mother of us all.

*2 Corinthians 5:17-21*
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[kyredneck]

if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

This is not the heavenly birth. Only those born from above are able to see this, enter into it, become part of this 'Israel of God' Galatians 6:15-16, this 'one new man' Ephesians 2:15, this 'one flock' John 10:16..

When Christ spoke these words...:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

...He wasn't implementing a new thing, he was revealing a mystery from of old.

34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world. Mt 13

 

[tyndale1946]

I don’t know … I never read the book.

I suggest you read the author first and then the book... John Bunyan after reading both then you can understand where the book came from... Pilgrims Progress is a religious allegory and as far as I'm concerned is second, the Bible is first... Brother Glen

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/bunyan/Grace Abounding to the Chief of - John Bunyan.pdf

 

[Alan Gross]

You are quite right; it's been a while since I read the book. On looking again at the early pages, Christian's consciousness of his burden seems to have come from his reading of the Bible, but of course, many people read the Bible without becoming aware of their sins just as they listen to preaching without such awareness (1 Corinthians 2:14).
It is God the Holy Spirit who must open the heart to receive the things of God, and conviction (of sin) will usually come before conversion.

It is God the Holy Spirit who must open the heart to receive the things of God, and conviction (of sin) will usually come before conversion.

Conviction of sin always comes before conversion, but that's O.K.;
"It is God the Holy Spirit who must open the heart to receive the things of God"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think Christian was 'made alive' long before he met evangelist.

Yes, that is the answer that most miss. It is totally a function of the spirit that quickens you. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

J

Conviction of sin always comes before conversion, but that's O.K.;
"It is God the Holy Spirit who must open the heart to receive the things of God"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bingo!

 

[AustinC]

Conviction of sin always comes before conversion, but that's O.K.;
"It is God the Holy Spirit who must open the heart to receive the things of God"
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Through what means did Christian receive his burden of sin?