About a Pastor who was twice a 5 point Calvinist.

[DaveXR650]

Well the best way to understand free will as I understand it and as the bible shows it. Man has the ability to hear and believe or to reject the gospel message. That is as simple as it gets. Ephesians 1:13
For those that say man can not do that because God has ordained all that will be saved because He is "sovereign" do not seem to understand what sovereign means. They seem to over look the fact that by their view of sovereign God has to be responsible for all the sin and for those that are lost. This of course they balk at but I really do not see any other way to understand their view.
Now at this point I am sure there are calvinists on here that will say I just do not understand calvinism. One thing I do know for sure, if whatever you are teaching contradicts the bible then you are wrong and that is as simple as it gets.

Ephesians 1:4-5 are some of the most Calvinistic passages in the Bible. But you are right - at the most basic and personal level, from our individual point of view, we do hear the gospel and then believe or reject it. The issues of how that came to be are worth discussing but I agree with @atpollard in post 72 in that it is not a hill to die on for me either. By the way, for some reason the debate and discussion on this particular thread has been very civil and refreshing and I have enjoyed it a lot and learned a few things.

 

[kyredneck]

Well the best way to understand free will as I understand it and as the bible shows it. Man has the ability to hear and believe or to reject the gospel message. That is as simple as it gets.

This is as simple as it gets, the scriptures are not addressed to 'man', they're addressed to 'the saints':

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....

James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;

1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.

Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

 

[Alan Gross]

Ephesians 1:4-5 are some of the most Calvinistic passages in the Bible. But you are right - at the most basic and personal level, from our individual point of view, we do hear the gospel and then believe or reject it. The issues of how that came to be are worth discussing but I agree with @atpollard in post 72 in that it is not a hill to die on for me either. By the way, for some reason the debate and discussion on this particular thread has been very civil and refreshing and I have enjoyed it a lot and learned a few things.

Don't expect anyone that is not Born Again to understand the Five Points of Calvinism, or the 103 BAPTIST DOCTRINES they are related to, here:

I hold to these points of Calvinism (5 of 103 Systematic BAPTIST DOCTRINES pt 1)

I hold to these points of Calvinism (5 of 103 Systematic BAPTIST DOCTRINES pt 2)

And don't expect a Saved person to know anything,
if they don't read and believe what was quoted:

Ephesians 1:4-5 are some of the most Calvinistic passages in the Bible.

4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love

5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

with Ephesians 2:1-5;

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

3 All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses.
It is by grace you have been saved!

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

??? Did you at pollard get sucked into slick talk or play into the hands of the devil ???

"But you are right - at the most basic and personal level, from our individual point of view, we do hear the gospel and then believe or reject it."

Except physical hearing is not enough
and the lost person's soul is dead in your trespasses and sins,

That's Total Depravity, or
the Nature, Aggravations,
and Sad Effects of the Sin of Man.

Saved people can't learn any further
and lost people can't be Saved without it.
His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 3, Chapter 9

 

[Alan Gross]

This is as simple as it gets, the scriptures are not addressed to 'man', they're addressed to 'the saints':

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....

James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;

1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.

Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

All of these, in Red above, were already, "

them that have obtained a like precious faith

by a Process of REGENERATION, not stated in the text.

 

[kyredneck]

All of these, in Red above, were already, "


by a Process of REGENERATION, not stated in the text.

???

I have no idea what your point is. My point was that @Silverhair is applying scripture to those that it is not intended, i.e., audience relevance.

 

[AustinC]

. If they understood, they'd cease their anti-scriptural mantra of 'justification by the gospel alone'.

No one has said what you state.
We have said that we are justified by faith alone, not by the efforts (works) of any man. In other words a man's works does not merit him his salvation.

 

[Alan Gross]

No one has said what you state.
We have said that we are justified by faith alone, not by the efforts (works) of any man. In other words a man's works does not merit him his salvation.

"Justification", before men, works, or
physical hearing is not enough
when the lost person's soul is dead in trespasses and sins,

That's Total Depravity, or
the Nature, Aggravations,
and Sad Effects of the Sin of Man.

Saved people can't learn any further
and lost people can't be Saved without it.
His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 3, Chapter 9

 

[37818]

The systematic theology of Reformed or Calvinism are based on presuppositions on a broad spectrum on Biblical teaching. And to throw the whole set all at once is avoiding dealing with one issue at a time.

Limited atonement at the exclusion of Christ's atonement for everyone is not found in the written word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

No one has said what you state.
We have said that we are justified by faith alone,

Same thing, dumb one. You've not the I.Q. enough to know that when you parrot 'justification by faith alone' that that's precisely what you're parroting, 'justification by the gospel alone'?

You're just a 'Reformed robot', you've never placed any serious thought into what you espouse.

 

[Alan Gross]

The systematic theology of Reformed or Calvinism are based on presuppositions on a broad spectrum on Biblical teaching. And to throw the whole set all at once is avoiding dealing with one issue at a time.

Limited atonement at the exclusion of Christ's atonement for everyone is not found in the written word of God.

I hold to these points of Calvinism
(5 of 103 Systematic BAPTIST DOCTRINES pt 1)

I hold to these points of Calvinism
(5 of 103 Systematic BAPTIST DOCTRINES pt 2)

The 5 in the lists that are RED.

My presupposition is "Justification", before men, works, or
physical hearing is not enough
when the lost person's soul is dead in trespasses and sins,

My presupposition is That's Total Depravity, or
the Nature, Aggravations,
and Sad Effects of the Sin of Man.

Without understanding Total Depravity,
Saved people can't learn any further
and lost people can't be Saved without it.
His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 3, Chapter 9

 

[AustinC]

Same thing, dumb one. You've not the I.Q. enough to know that when you parrot 'justification by faith alone' that that's precisely what you're parroting, 'justification by the gospel alone'?

You're just a 'Reformed robot', you've never placed any serious thought into what you espouse.

*Titus 3:4-7*
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

Lol, like I said, an addict grappling for his fix, and a deceitful one at that (but aren't they all? Deceitful?).

KY denial of the bible as you seem to do and yet deny is really not a good place to be. You really do not like it when people disagree with you do you.

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 1:4-5 are some of the most Calvinistic passages in the Bible. But you are right - at the most basic and personal level, from our individual point of view, we do hear the gospel and then believe or reject it. The issues of how that came to be are worth discussing but I agree with @atpollard in post 72 in that it is not a hill to die on for me either. By the way, for some reason the debate and discussion on this particular thread has been very civil and refreshing and I have enjoyed it a lot and learned a few things.

Yes the civil tone on here is rather nice. I agree with your comment on Eph 1:4-5 but when looked at in the context Eph 1:1-14 that does put a different light on the subject. We should all strive toward the position that we can disagree without being disagreeable. Unfortunately we all seem to fall into the disagreeable vein more than we should.

 

[Silverhair]

This is as simple as it gets, the scriptures are not addressed to 'man', they're addressed to 'the saints':

Romans:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.....To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:

2 Corinthians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Galatians:
Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead), and all the brethren that are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians:
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ that are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

1 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

2 Thessalonians:
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope; unto Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Timothy:
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus, to Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus:
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God`s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,......to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

Philemon:
Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved and fellow-worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow-soldier, and to the church in thy house:

Hebrews:
.....Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling,.....

James:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are of the Dispersion, greeting. Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations;

1 Peter:
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Peter:
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John:
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

2 John:
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

3 John:
The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth.

Jude:
Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Revelations:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;

Then by your logic none of us would ever have picked up a bible as none of us were saints until we were placed into Christ. Must say you do have a rather unique way of reading and understanding the bible.

 

[kyredneck]

denial of the bible

...is exactly what I've seen you do with nearly every post you make, answering back against God's sovereign grace.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"

That's you, old man. That's what all your blithering against His sovereign grace amounts to, Who are you, old man?

Lol, you're just someone here on the internet to get his 'fix'.

 

[Silverhair]

???

I have no idea what your point is. My point was that @Silverhair is applying scripture to those that it is not intended, i.e., audience relevance.

Interesting style of evangelism, you only try to reach the already saved for Christ. Well at least that way you don't have to worry that they will reject the invitation.

 

[Silverhair]

...is exactly what I've seen you do with nearly every post you make, answering back against God's sovereign grace.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"

That's you, old man. That's what all your blithering against His sovereign grace amounts to, Who are you, old man?

Lol, you're just someone here on the internet to get his 'fix'.

KY I have seen enough of your comments so that I really can not take you seriously. I think you mean well but you deny the power of God in many of your posts. I am not speaking back to God but to you. I really think you have a burr under your saddle in regard to me. You just are upset that I do not fall inline with your calvinist view. Sorry you feel that way but since I do not think calvinism reflects the God of scripture it seems we will just have to disagree.

 

[kyredneck]

Interesting style of evangelism, you only try to reach the already saved for Christ. Well at least that way you don't have to worry that they will reject the invitation.

What a bunch of deceitful sanctimonious irrelevant garbage. You're a trip, old man, but not the first of your kind I've seen on this board.

 

[kyredneck]

KY I have seen enough of your comments so that I really can not take you seriously. I think you mean well but you deny the power of God in many of your posts. I am not speaking back to God but to you. I really think you have a burr under your saddle in regard to me. You just are upset that I do not fall inline with your calvinist view. Sorry you feel that way but since I do not think calvinism reflects the God of scripture it seems we will just have to disagree.

More irrelevant sanctimonious garbage. This is you old man, in a nutshell:

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"

Paul foreseen your kind coming, old man.

 

[atpollard]

??? Did you at pollard get sucked into slick talk or play into the hands of the devil ???

I don’t think so.

I was a 4 point Calvinist as a former atheist attending a Wesleyan Holiness Church having never heard of either Calvin or Arminius. LIFE confirmed what I read in SCRIPTURE:

1. People are no darn good. (T)
2. God does as He pleases … just because. (U)
3. God does not try, God does. (I)
4. God finishes what He starts. (P)

The question of who Jesus died for (L), never entered my mind. I was content that He died for me.

So when I finally learned about this whole Calvinism vs Arminianism debate, I read up on both sides and believe that Limited Atonement makes more sense than Prevenient Grace. However, I think it is really splitting a hair to argue whether God gives you the ability to choose and a heart to choose as one miracle or two. It also feels presumptuous to tell Jesus who he died for and tell the Father how he draws.

So I stand by my claim that ATONEMENT is not a hill I am willing to die on. Now, you touch (TUIP) and scripture seems crystal clear about the 4 points that I discovered pre-Calvinism.