About a Pastor who was twice a 5 point Calvinist.

[Alan Gross]

That’s not an argument, only an example of those exercising their will not to come to Jesus. No one said the bird had to accept the moon ride.

But again, there is a fundamental difference of understanding regarding free will that is not likely to be overcome in these discussions.

In any case, how about turning your Caps Lock off? There's no need to yell, is there?

Luke 19:10; "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Luke 19:10; "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

Again, that does not present an argument.

 

[Alan Gross]

Again, that does not present an argument.

Natural man is Naturally dead in tresspasses and sins.

The 'argument' is either believing God's Word, or not.

THE FREE AGENCY OF MAN Man cannot do otherwise
than continue in sin so long as he is in his natural state

Jer. 17:9;

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked:
who can know it?"

Prov. 4:23;

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."

Job 14-4; "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

Jer. 13:23; "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

John 6:65; "And He said, Therefore said I unto you,
that no man can Come unto Me, except it were Given unto him of My Father."

Rom. 8:7,8; "

"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all,
that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

1 Cor. 2:14;

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him:

neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned."

But his continuance in sin is not due to outside compulsion or restraint,
but to his own character which causes him to choose darkness rather than light

John 3:19;

"And this is the condemnation,
that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil."

He continues in sin for the same reason that a hog wallows in the mire.

He continues in sin for the same reason that God continues in holiness.

 

[37818]

Mankind obtained God's knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:22. That didn't cause inability. Genesis 3:7.

 

[Silverhair]

From the article:

"The fundamental problem with Calvinism is the Gospel, which has two distinct elements. The first is the PROVISION – "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)."

My friends, as I see it, the fundamental problem with this article ( and hence the author's view of the Gospel ) is this:

To me he looks at 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 as applying to all men. But the letter is written to those who had already believed, those of God's elect at Corinth...
The same ones the Lord told Paul in Acts of the Apostles:

" Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city. And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them." ( Acts of the Apostles 18:9-11 ).

The Lord told Paul that there were many of His elect at Corinth, and to speak because of this.
This letter, and all of the epistles to the churches, were written only to those who have and had believed, and is in no way an appeal to, or even applies to, all men indiscriminately.
There is no "provision", and there never has been.


"The second is the APPROPRIATION – "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). Calvinism virtually strips the Gospel of its provisional element. For the doctrine of Limited Atonement denies to EVERY sinner ANY objective assurance that Christ died for his or hr sins!"

Quite the contrary,
So-called "Calvinism" ( God choosing sinners to salvation, in Christ before the foundation of the world ) strips away the false gospel of appropriating grace through works, by removing any possibility of a man or woman performing an act that would help them to gain what God only gives as a gift...
Freely given to whomever the Lord wills and freely received by His children through His decision to have mercy and compassion on them. ( Romans 9 ).

What it does is declare that those who have believed, have done so because they were ordained to eternal life...
and God's wrath, rather than being upon them ( like it is for the unbeliever ), has been propitiated by their Saviour's sacrifice on the cross.

Christ died for our ( the believer's ) sins according to the Scriptures...
The very same Scriptures ( such as Isaiah 53, for example ) which tell us this:

"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." ( Isaiah 53:8 ).


Isaiah's people are the people of God, the "Israel of God".
Christ died for them and them alone and saves only those who were given to Him by His Father.

So Dave, after all is said and done you make God the God of reprobation. All those that are doomed to hell are doomed because God did not pick them. So you can not hold them responsible for their condemnation as it was all decided before time began according to your theology. That's quite the theology you have there.

 

[Silverhair]

What you have written is your philosophy and poor interpretation and not what God has told you.

Take off those calvi glasses and read the bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

So Dave, after all is said and done you make God the God of reprobation. All those that are doomed to hell are doomed because God did not pick them. So you can not hold them responsible for their condemnation as it was all decided before time began according to your theology. That's quite the theology you have there.

So you can not hold them responsible for their condemnation as it was all decided before time began according to your theology.

Everyone was CONDEMNED.

 

[Silverhair]

It fully clarified "whoever."

Of course, you are free to ignore Jesus clarification and fully embrace universalism.

And you are free to the bible and embrace your calvinism

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Mar 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mar 8:35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Notice the options presented here. one can believe or one can deny but the choice is theirs. That is not universalism that is free will.

 

[Silverhair]

Everyone was CONDEMNED.

Not according to your theology. Or did you forget that the calvinists keep saying chosen = elect and since you also say God chose you before the foundation of the world that would mean that you consider yourselves to be elect. But one is only elect after they have trusted in Christ and thus are no longer condemned. So by your calvinist logic you were never condemned and all those that were not picked were condemned before the foundation of the world.

So logically since God did not pick them for salvation then He picked them for condemnation but that is something that calvinists want to ignore.

 

[Alan Gross]

And you are free to the bible and embrace your calvinism

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Mar 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mar 8:35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Notice the options presented here. one can believe or one can deny but the choice is theirs. That is not universalism that is free will.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

"for everyone who believes," is not describing,
"The Method, by which, to Obtain Salvation."

It is describing the State of their soul,
after being exposed to The Word, for CONDEMNATION",
and then, "the gospel of Christ", SAVES their soul."

By The Power of God and for his Glory.

Not of man and man can not rob God of His Glory,
for Being The SAVING AGENT, in The Eternal Plan of God,
for THe Salvation of His Chosen ones.

"for it is the Power of God to Salvation"

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

"you may believe";
is not describing,
"The Method, by which, to Obtain Salvation."

It is describing the State of their soul,
after being exposed to The Word, for CONDEMNATION",
and then, "the gospel of Christ", SAVES their soul."

By The Power of God and for his Glory.

Mar 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

"Whoever desires";
is not describing,
"The Method, by which, to Obtain Salvation."

It is describing the State of their soul,
after being exposed to The Word, for CONDEMNATION",
and then, "the gospel of Christ", SAVES their soul."

By The Power of God and for his Glory.

Mar 8:35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Speaking to SAVED souls, who by The POWER of GOD in them,
may be one that, "desires to save his life", or "whoever loses his life."

 

[Alan Gross]

So by your calvinist logic you were never condemned and all those that were not picked were condemned before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:3;
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past
in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;

and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So logically since God did not pick them for salvation then He picked them for condemnation

God left them where they were. No 'picking' needed.

All were CONDEMNED and unable, of themselves,
to achieve, "Coming to God", on their own.

Some had to be and were CHOSEN, by God,
according to the Good Pleasure of His Will.

God is God.

And that is what He has REVEALED to Mankind, in His WORD.

 

[AustinC]

And you are free to the bible and embrace your calvinism

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Mar 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Mar 8:35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.

Notice the options presented here. one can believe or one can deny but the choice is theirs. That is not universalism that is free will.

I notice that all these verses support my theology. How you cannot grasp the meaning of these verses is beyond me. I suspect you just want to be your own king.

 

[Silverhair]

"for everyone who believes," is not describing,
"The Method, by which, to Obtain Salvation."

It is describing the State of their soul,
after being exposed to The Word, for CONDEMNATION",
and then, "the gospel of Christ", SAVES their soul."

By The Power of God and for his Glory.

Not of man and man can not rob God of His Glory,
for Being The SAVING AGENT, in The Eternal Plan of God,
for THe Salvation of His Chosen ones.

"for it is the Power of God to Salvation"





"you may believe";
is not describing,
"The Method, by which, to Obtain Salvation."

It is describing the State of their soul,
after being exposed to The Word, for CONDEMNATION",
and then, "the gospel of Christ", SAVES their soul."

By The Power of God and for his Glory.




"Whoever desires";
is not describing,
"The Method, by which, to Obtain Salvation."

It is describing the State of their soul,
after being exposed to The Word, for CONDEMNATION",
and then, "the gospel of Christ", SAVES their soul."

By The Power of God and for his Glory.




Speaking to SAVED souls, who by The POWER of GOD in them,
may be one that, "desires to save his life", or "whoever loses his life."

Just the fact you have to pick and choose what you like in those verses actually disqualifies you from actually speaking to the truth of scripture. But that seems to be the way a few of you on here read the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Ephesians 2:3;
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past
in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;

and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



God left them where they were. No 'picking' needed.

All were CONDEMNED and unable, of themselves,
to achieve, "Coming to God", on their own.

Some had to be and were CHOSEN, by God,
according to the Good Pleasure of His Will.

God is God.

And that is what He has REVEALED to Mankind, in His WORD.

Like I said calvinists like to ignore the negative reality of their theology.

 

[Silverhair]

I notice that all these verses support my theology. How you cannot grasp the meaning of these verses is beyond me. I suspect you just want to be your own king.

The fact you think those verses support your deterministic theology shows you really do not understand them at all.

 

[AustinC]

The fact you think those verses support your deterministic theology shows you really do not understand them at all.

The fact you don't see how God is supreme in these verses shows you do not understand these verses nor all of God's holy word.

 

[Alan Gross]

The fact you think those verses support your deterministic theology shows you really do not understand them at all.

God has Determined what you know and what you don't know;
about, "How God Saves souls", much less,

"The Manifold Wisdom and Whole Counsel of God, of which,
"The Doctrines of Grace", i.e., "The 5 Points of "Calvinism",
are a small part.

Acts 2:23;
"Him, being delivered by the
Determinate Counsel
and Foreknowledge of God, ye have taken,
and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

Matthew 11:25;
"At that time Jesus answered and said,
I thank thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth,
because
thou hast hid these things
from the wise and prudent,
and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

[Alan Gross]

Just the fact you have to pick and choose what you like in those verses actually disqualifies you from actually speaking to the truth of scripture. But that seems to be the way a few of you on here read the bible.

I picked the words you picked and highlighted in red
and gave an explanation of them.

The ones you "picked".

Just the fact you have to pick and choose what you like in those verses actually disqualifies you from actually speaking to the truth of scripture.

You pick and chose more than anyone, otherwise,
you would give your definition of, "dead".

I say there are, "no degrees", to, "dead".

Dead is dead.

Why is this verse always left out of your, "scheme",
or "method" of Salvation?

Ephesians 2:1; "And you hath He Quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

But that seems to be the way a few of you on here read the bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

Like I said calvinists like to ignore the negative reality of their theology.

We do not ignore anything.

It's Bible.

Like, "And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;",

we believe AND GIVE GOD THE GLORY FOR SALVATION.

 

[Alan Gross]

Mankind obtained God's knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:22. That didn't cause inability. Genesis 3:7.

Genesis 3:7; "And the eyes of them both were opened,
and they knew that they were naked;
and they sewed fig leaves together,
and made themselves aprons."

And they knew they were lost, in sin,
now alienated from The God that they had had fellowship with
and now know they are UNABLE to RELATE to GOD
Who is SPIRIT.

They no longer had a Spirit

and they tried to, "cover", themselves,
the way lost people try to, "cover themselves", with False Religion.