• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

THE CHRONOLOGICAL RELATION OF QUICKENING AND CONVERSION

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
THE CHRONOLOGICAL RELATION OF QUICKENING AND CONVERSION

Because quickening logically precedes conversion
is not proof that it does so chronologically, or as to time.

We maintain that quickening does not precede conversion in matter of time,
but that they both are synchronous or simultaneous.

Let us note:

1. ARGUMENTS IN PROOF OF THIS

(1) A Chronological Difference Between Quickening and Conversion
Would Involve the Monstrosity of an Individual
With Life from Above and Yet in Unbelief.

In the Impartation of Divine Life we Partake of the Nature of God
(2 Pet. 1:4; "by which have been Given to us Exceedingly Great
and Precious Promises,
that through these you may be Partakers of the Divine Nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
).

you may be Partakers of the Divine Nature, (only then)

And it is impossible that such a Nature should be in Unbelief.

All unbelievers are spoken of in the Bible as being dead.

Hence it cannot be that there is ever a time
when there is
(Spiritual) Life without Faith.

(2) The Scripture Declares That Only He That Hath the Son Has Life.

This is declared in 1 John 5:12;

"He that hath the Son hath (Spiritual) life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not (Spiritual) life."


Having the Son involves believing on the Son. Hence none have life except believers. Or, to put it another way, all that have life are believers; therefore there can be no period of time between quickening and conversion

2. EXPLANATION How can there be a logical succession
without a chronological succession.

A number of illustrations could be given to show that this is possible,
even in the physical realm.

One apt illustration is as follows.

Imagine a tube extending
from the Atlantic coast of the United States to the Pacific.

Now imagine also that this tube is filled with an incompressible fluid.

If pressure is exerted on this fluid on the Atlantic coast,
it will be registered instantly on the Pacific.

Yet, logically, the exertion of the pressure must precede
the registering of it at the other end.

Then we give the following beautiful illustration
of the simultaneousness of quickening and conversion.

It is from Alvah Hovey, as given by A. H. Strong:

"At the same time that God makes the photographic plate sensitive,
He pours in the light of truth
whereby the image of Christ is formed in the soul.

Without the sensitizing of the plate,
it would never fix the rays of light so as to retain the image.

In the process of sensitizing, the plate is passive;

under the influence of light, it is active.

In both the sensitizing and the taking of the picture,

the real agent is not the plate nor the light, but the photographer.

The photographer cannot perform
both operations at the same moment.

God can.

He gives the New Affection,
and at the same instant, He Secures its Exercise in view of the Truth."


3. OBJECTION ANSWERED To the foregoing position
it may be objected that "godly sorrow worketh repentance,"
and that one dead in sin cannot have godly sorrow.

This is true.

But godly sorrow works repentance instantaneously,
and is synchronous with repentance.

It is impossible to conceive properly of a man having godly sorrow
without possessing also a changed mind or attitude towards sin.

Thus godly sorrow, the same as quickening,
logically precedes repentance,
but neither of them precede it chronologically.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
THE CHRONOLOGICAL RELATION OF QUICKENING AND CONVERSION

Because quickening logically precedes conversion
is not proof that it does so chronologically, or as to time.

We maintain that quickening does not precede conversion in matter of time,
but that they both are synchronous or simultaneous.

Let us note:

1. ARGUMENTS IN PROOF OF THIS

(1) A Chronological Difference Between Quickening and Conversion
Would Involve the Monstrosity of an Individual
With Life from Above and Yet in Unbelief.

In the Impartation of Divine Life we Partake of the Nature of God
(2 Pet. 1:4; "by which have been Given to us Exceedingly Great
and Precious Promises,
that through these you may be Partakers of the Divine Nature,
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
).

you may be Partakers of the Divine Nature, (only then)

And it is impossible that such a Nature should be in Unbelief.

All unbelievers are spoken of in the Bible as being dead.

Hence it cannot be that there is ever a time
when there is
(Spiritual) Life without Faith.

(2) The Scripture Declares That Only He That Hath the Son Has Life.

This is declared in 1 John 5:12;

"He that hath the Son hath (Spiritual) life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not (Spiritual) life."


Having the Son involves believing on the Son. Hence none have life except believers. Or, to put it another way, all that have life are believers; therefore there can be no period of time between quickening and conversion

2. EXPLANATION How can there be a logical succession
without a chronological succession.

A number of illustrations could be given to show that this is possible,
even in the physical realm.

One apt illustration is as follows.

Imagine a tube extending
from the Atlantic coast of the United States to the Pacific.

Now imagine also that this tube is filled with an incompressible fluid.

If pressure is exerted on this fluid on the Atlantic coast,
it will be registered instantly on the Pacific.

Yet, logically, the exertion of the pressure must precede
the registering of it at the other end.

Then we give the following beautiful illustration
of the simultaneousness of quickening and conversion.

It is from Alvah Hovey, as given by A. H. Strong:

"At the same time that God makes the photographic plate sensitive,
He pours in the light of truth
whereby the image of Christ is formed in the soul.

Without the sensitizing of the plate,
it would never fix the rays of light so as to retain the image.

In the process of sensitizing, the plate is passive;

under the influence of light, it is active.

In both the sensitizing and the taking of the picture,

the real agent is not the plate nor the light, but the photographer.

The photographer cannot perform
both operations at the same moment.

God can.

He gives the New Affection,
and at the same instant, He Secures its Exercise in view of the Truth."


3. OBJECTION ANSWERED To the foregoing position
it may be objected that "godly sorrow worketh repentance,"
and that one dead in sin cannot have godly sorrow.

This is true.

But godly sorrow works repentance instantaneously,
and is synchronous with repentance.

It is impossible to conceive properly of a man having godly sorrow
without possessing also a changed mind or attitude towards sin.

Thus godly sorrow, the same as quickening,
logically precedes repentance,
but neither of them precede it chronologically.
I’m not sure, exactly, of your definitions.

I look at “salvation” as being in a right relationship with God.

Do you equate quickening and/or conversation as equaling “salvation”.

I also would like your opinion on the role of God Holy Spirit in “drawing” and “convicting” of sin and the truth of the gospel in “quacking/conversion that leads to faith and “salvation”.

Thanks

peace to you
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure, exactly, of your definitions.

I look at “salvation” as being in a right relationship with God.

Do you equate quickening and/or conversation as equaling “salvation”.

I also would like your opinion on the role of God Holy Spirit in “drawing” and “convicting” of sin and the truth of the gospel in “quacking/conversion that leads to faith and “salvation”.

Thanks

peace to you

Thank you, for asking.


Do you equate quickening and/or conversation as equaling “salvation”.

Yes, these are The New Birth.

They are also, "Repentance and Faith",
as well as quickening and/or conversation
as equaling “salvation”,
which when they are Granted is The New Birth,

They are the "EFFECT" of "THE EFFECTUAL CALL", below;

Romans 8:30; "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified;
and whom He justified, these He also glorified."


I also would like your opinion on the role of God Holy Spirit in “drawing” and “convicting” of sin and the truth of the gospel in “quacking/conversion that leads to faith and “salvation”.

This is all of the several postings, on Effectual Call, from John Gill, unedited.

WELL WORTH SIPHONING THROUGH!! Effectual Calling

...

Then, this is my:

How God Saves souls.

The Triune Godhead Elected.

"whom He did Predestinate" Romans 8:30

The Triune Godhead Effectually Calls

"them He Calls..." Romans 8:28, 30.

The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
in that Effectual Call, by The Holy Spirit,
in the beginning of CONVERSION, by The WORD of GOD.

Romans 3:10
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

The Law and The Gospel Come
by the Instrumentation of The Word of God

Romans 3:19;
"Now we know that whatever the law says,
it says to those who are under the law,
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law
no flesh will be justified in His sight,
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."


Ephesians 1:13a "In whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:



The Spiritually Dead sinner
is GIVEN UNDERSTANDING of CONVICTION,
to the extent that
God GRANTS them REPENTANCE
and FAITH to BELIEVE in The GOSPEL,
The Power of God unto SALVATION,

Ephesians 2:1
"And you hath he quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;"


Acts 20:21
"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,
repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."


Romans 1:16
" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation
to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."


and The GODHEAD's ELECTION and EFFECTUAL CALLING
HAVE SUCCEEDED PERFECTLY.

30 "Then I was by Him, as One brought up with Him:
and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him"


THE BELIEVER is SEALED by The HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 1:13b "...in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were Sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,"


This is The NEW BIRTH, REGENERATION,
and JUSTIFICATION.

Romans 8:30c "whom He called, them He also Justified:"

GLORIFICATION is in the Future in man's view.

Romans 8:30c "and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified."
 
Last edited:

37818

Well-Known Member
Two issues. What the word of God says and how it is interpreted to mean.

Ephesians 1:13, ". . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, . . ."

Romans 10:13-15, ". . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . ."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yet another bogus thread presenting nonsense.

What is the quickening? That refers to being made spiritually alive together with Christ from our prior condition of being spiritually dead.

Conversion is one of those words used to refer to two entirely different things. One is when a person converts from believing in themself or another errant view, to believing in God and His Christ. The other usage refers to God's action of causing a person to be born anew.

The Greek female noun "epistrophē" is found in Acts 15:3 and refers to Gentiles being saved without the work of circumcision. Thus here the idea is the second meaning, God's action of causing a person to be born anew. The noun only appears once in the NT, but the verb form of the word usually is used to refer to turning to God (i.e. repent and urn to God) thus usually refers to the first meaning.

Thus the Opening post claims a person is both born anew at the same time they believe. This of course is absolute nonsense as we are chosen through faith so our faith existed and was utilized when God chose us for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
Yet another bogus thread presenting nonsense.

What is the quickening? That refers to being made spiritually alive together with Christ from our prior condition of being spiritually dead.

Conversion is one of those words used to refer to two entirely different things. One is when a person converts from believing in themself or another errant view, to believing in God and His Christ. The other usage refers to God's action of causing a person to be born anew.

The Greek female noun "epistrophē" is found in Acts 15:3 and refers to Gentiles being saved without the work of circumcision. Thus here the idea is the second meaning, God's action of causing a person to be born anew. The noun only appears once in the NT, but the verb form of the word usually is used to refer to turning to God (i.e. repent and urn to God) thus usually refers to the first meaning.

Thus the Opening post claims a person is both born anew at the same time they believe. This of course is absolute nonsense as we are chosen through faith so our faith existed and was utilized when God chose us for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

because God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation

through sanctification of the Spirit
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
because God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation ...through sanctification of the Spirit

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant in His Blood] through sanctification by the Spirit [setting the person apart in Christ] and faith in the truth.
 
Top