Did Christ Provide Sinners Only a "Chance"?

[KenH]

Well if that is the only thing that you read in that post then that says a lot about you. I guess I am just not as perfect as you are.

 

[Silverhair]

Not defensive there Ken. Why did you not deal with the rest of the post?

 

[KenH]

Not defensive there Ken. Why did you not deal with the rest of the post?

I didn't respond because I am pretty close to putting you into the same category as I have put Van - not responding to you. I simply replied to that post in case someone came along and read it they wouldn't think that Paul wrote 1 Peter. That's all. I wasn't really attempting to respond to your post, just clearing up the mistake.

 

[Alan Gross]

I didn't respond because I am pretty close to putting you into the same category as I have put Van - not responding to you. I simply replied to that post in case someone came along and read it they wouldn't think that Paul wrote 1 Peter. That's all. I wasn't really attempting to respond to your post, just clearing up the mistake.

I wasn't going to say anything, but he does remind me of Van, more every day.

Silverhairology. The flesh in Spades.

 

[Silverhair]

I didn't respond because I am pretty close to putting you into the same category as I have put Van - not responding to you. I simply replied to that post in case someone came along and read it they wouldn't think that Paul wrote 1 Peter. That's all. I wasn't really attempting to respond to your post, just clearing up the mistake.

So you agree with the rest of the post as you do not call it a mistake. The fact that you do not want to deal with what I post just shows that you do not want to deal with scripture as it points out the errors of your view. You hold to your calvinism as that is what you think is correct. I do not see it as correct as it does not agree with the text of scripture.

If you do not want to reply that is your choice. Have a good evening.

 

[Silverhair]

I wasn't going to say anything, but he does remind me of Van, more every day.

Silverhairology. The flesh in Spades.

Just goes to show that you deny scripture which is my authority and you keep disagreeing with the text that I post. Your problem is not with me it is with the word of God.

 

[KenH]

Have a good evening.

You, too.

 

[Alan Gross]

So you agree with what the DoG says rather than the bible. Your authority is your calvinism rather than the bible.

"Justin. A.D. 150. Justin, called the Martyr,
to distinguish him from others of the same name, was a native of Samaria;
he was born A.D. 89, was brought up a philosopher,
afterwards became a Christian, and suffered martyrdom
in the third year of M. Aurelius Antonius,
and L. Verus, A.D. 163. Several of his writings continue to this day,
in which may be observed:

Justin asserts, that God not only foreknows that some will be saved,
and others damned,
but that he has afore prepared salvation for some persons, and punishment for others.

Speaking of the sufferings of Christians for the sake of Christ, he has these words;
which, says he, we bear, that we may not "with our voice deny Christ,
by whom we are called
eiv swthrian thn prohtoimasmenhn para tou Patrov hmwn,
unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father."

And in another place, treating of Christ as the Angel of the great counsel,
according to the Septuagint version of Isaiah 9:6, he thus speaks:

"The great things, ebebouleuto o Pathr,
which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men,"
that are or shall be well-pleasing to him,
and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men,
he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught,
Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23;

and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy
that shall not be saved, he will say to them,

"Go ye into outer darkness,
which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels."

He elsewhere, indeed well observes,

"that it is not the fault of God, oi proginwskomenoi kai genhsomenoi adikoi,
that those who are foreknown, and shall be unrighteous,
whether angels or men, that they are wicked;
but it is through their own fault that every one is such as he appears to be."

And a little further, he adds, "Wherefore if the word of God intimates beforehand
that some angels and men shall be punished, because that
proeginosken autous ometabletous genesomenous ponerous,
he foreknew that they would be immutably wicked;"

it has foretold these things, but not that God has made them such;

seeing, if they repent, all, boulomenoi,
that are willing to obtain the mercy of God may.
To which we heartily agree.

We say that God makes no man wicked, but he makes himself so;

that neither the foreknowledge of God, nor his decrees,
necessitate men to sin;

and that God damns no man,
nor has he decreed to damn any but for sin;

and that whoever is truly desirous of the grace and mercy of God,
may obtain it through Christ."

 

[Alan Gross]

Just goes to show that you deny scripture which is my authority and you keep disagreeing with the text that I post. Your problem is not with me it is with the word of God.

scripture which is my authority

Your authority you change to the opposite,
because it doesn't fit your flesh-filled philosophy.

"dead" = "alive"

you keep disagreeing with the text that I post.

When you change The Bible, of course.

Your problem is not with me it is with the word of God.

My problem is that you never Worship God.

Why is that, do you suppose?

 

[DaveXR650]

"that it is not the fault of God, oi proginwskomenoi kai genhsomenoi adikoi,
that those who are foreknown, and shall be unrighteous,
whether angels or men, that they are wicked;
but it is through their own fault that every one is such as he appears to be."

And a little further, he adds, "Wherefore if the word of God intimates beforehand
that some angels and men shall be punished, because that
proeginosken autous ometabletous genesomenous ponerous,
he foreknew that they would be immutably wicked;"

it has foretold these things, but not that God has made them such;

seeing, if they repent, all, boulomenoi,
that are willing to obtain the mercy of God may.
To which we heartily agree.

Honestly, this seems to sound more like the forerunner of a free will type position rather than the hard determinism of the high Calvinists that came along later.

 

[Silverhair]

"Justin. A.D. 150. Justin, called the Martyr,
to distinguish him from others of the same name, was a native of Samaria;
he was born A.D. 89, was brought up a philosopher,
afterwards became a Christian, and suffered martyrdom
in the third year of M. Aurelius Antonius,
and L. Verus, A.D. 163. Several of his writings continue to this day,
in which may be observed:

Justin asserts, that God not only foreknows that some will be saved,
and others damned,
but that he has afore prepared salvation for some persons, and punishment for others.

Speaking of the sufferings of Christians for the sake of Christ, he has these words;
which, says he, we bear, that we may not "with our voice deny Christ,
by whom we are called
eiv swthrian thn prohtoimasmenhn para tou Patrov hmwn,
unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father."

And in another place, treating of Christ as the Angel of the great counsel,
according to the Septuagint version of Isaiah 9:6, he thus speaks:

"The great things, ebebouleuto o Pathr,
which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men,"
that are or shall be well-pleasing to him,
and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men,
he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught,
Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23;

and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy
that shall not be saved, he will say to them,

"Go ye into outer darkness,
which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels."

He elsewhere, indeed well observes,

"that it is not the fault of God, oi proginwskomenoi kai genhsomenoi adikoi,
that those who are foreknown, and shall be unrighteous,
whether angels or men, that they are wicked;
but it is through their own fault that every one is such as he appears to be."

And a little further, he adds, "Wherefore if the word of God intimates beforehand
that some angels and men shall be punished, because that
proeginosken autous ometabletous genesomenous ponerous,
he foreknew that they would be immutably wicked;"

it has foretold these things, but not that God has made them such;

seeing, if they repent, all, boulomenoi,
that are willing to obtain the mercy of God may.
To which we heartily agree.

We say that God makes no man wicked, but he makes himself so;

that neither the foreknowledge of God, nor his decrees,
necessitate men to sin;

and that God damns no man,
nor has he decreed to damn any but for sin;

and that whoever is truly desirous of the grace and mercy of God,
may obtain it through Christ."

Alan read what you posted.

“God not only foreknows that some will be saved, and others damned, but that he has afore prepared salvation for some persons, and punishment for others.”

Of course He does He is Omniscient, and the bible is clear where those that trust and those that do not will spend eternity. But this does not show, as you require, that He pre-selected some for each place.

“Speaking of the sufferings of Christians for the sake of Christ”

As Christians why would one deny Christ since God gives us the strength so as not to do so.

Alan read the text Mat 8:11-12 & 7:22-23 these are people that have not trusted in Christ for salvation but have only a spurious faith. How many people have a faith such as those of the seed parable. Those are the ones that although thinking they are saved are just trusting in their faith rather than the object of their faith. God will judge us by our heart not by our words although we will be judged for every careless word we do speak.

God is not taken by surprise when someone sins or repents but He does not cause them to sin or repent but as you quoted

“if they repent, all, boulomenoi, that are willing to obtain the mercy of God may.”

Your final quote is what I have been saying on here which you disagreed with and yet now you post as being correct.

“We say that God makes no man wicked, but he makes himself so;

that neither the foreknowledge of God, nor his decrees,

necessitate men to sin;

and that God damns no man,

nor has he decreed to damn any but for sin;

and that whoever is truly desirous of the grace and mercy of God,

may obtain it through Christ”

These words do not conform to your theology but they do to the bible.


You quoted a number of things from Justin Martyr but from what papers, you gave no references.

Those are things that only one with a free will can do.

“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be.” Justin Martyr (First Apology Chapters 42-44)


For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. Justin Martyr (First Apology Chapter 28)

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan read what you posted.



Of course He does He is Omniscient, and the bible is clear where those that trust and those that do not will spend eternity. But this does not show, as you require, that He pre-selected some for each place.



As Christians why would one deny Christ since God gives us the strength so as not to do so.

Alan read the text Mat 8:11-12 & 7:22-23 these are people that have not trusted in Christ for salvation but have only a spurious faith. How many people have a faith such as those of the seed parable. Those are the ones that although thinking they are saved are just trusting in their faith rather than the object of their faith. God will judge us by our heart not by our words although we will be judged for every careless word we do speak.

God is not taken by surprise when someone sins or repents but He does not cause them to sin or repent but as you quoted

Your final quote is what I have been saying on here which you disagreed with and yet now you post as being correct.




These words do not conform to your theology but they do to the bible.


You quoted a number of things from Justin Martyr but from what papers, you gave no references.

Those are things that only one with a free will can do.

“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be.” Justin Martyr (First Apology Chapters 42-44)


For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born. In the beginning He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God; for they have been born rational and contemplative. And if any one disbelieves that God cares for these things, he will thereby either insinuate that God does not exist, or he will assert that though He exists He delights in vice, or exists like a stone, and that neither virtue nor vice are anything, but only in the opinion of men these things are reckoned good or evil. Justin Martyr (First Apology Chapter 28)

The way to worship God is to say;

"Thy people shall be willing
in the day of thy power,

in the beauties of holiness
from the womb of the morning:

thou hast the dew of thy youth."—Psalm 110:3.

 

[Van]

A lost sinner remains dead in sins and trespasses,
until being Quickened & Renewed by the Holy Spirit,
and is thereby Spiritually Enabled to Answer the Effectual Call of God,
by and through the Instrumentation of The WORD of GOD
and to Embrace the Grace Offered and Conveyed in it;

Yet another false claim with zero biblical support, repeated over and over again. What does it mean to be "dead in sins and trespasses?" The Falselogy proponents claim being unable to seek God or trust in Christ. Total fiction. The bible tells us of lost people who sought God, sometimes by works, sometimes by faith.

In order to believe the fiction of Falselogy, you have to disregard God's word. For example Matthew 23:13 has the lost entering the kingdom, so enabled by Irresistible Grace, according to Falselogy, but then they were prevented from going in, thus the grace was not irresistible. Verse after verse tells us of people seeking God, such as the rich young ruler, but Falselogy disregards truth for the fiction made by men.

Yet another absurd thread pushing an obviously false assertion. Just because Christ died to provide the opportunity for salvation to all who believe (as determined by God) that does not suggest Christ does not actually save each and every person given to Him by the Father. John 6:37.

 

[Silverhair]

The way to worship God is to say;

"Thy people shall be willing
in the day of thy power,

in the beauties of holiness
from the womb of the morning:

thou hast the dew of thy youth."—Psalm 110:3.

 

[Silverhair]

The way to worship God is to say;

"Thy people shall be willing
in the day of thy power,

in the beauties of holiness
from the womb of the morning:

thou hast the dew of thy youth."—Psalm 110:3.

I agree those that trust in the Lord will willingly praise Him.

 

[Alan Gross]

I agree those that trust in the Lord will willingly praise Him.

You are agreeing with Van.

 

[Alan Gross]

I agree those that trust in the Lord will willingly praise Him.

Understanding of God's Revelation begins with the fear of God, and Total Depravity.

Otherwise things like this can't be seen:
22. The Outward and Inward Calls
23. The New Birth
24. The Doctrine of Conversion
25. Repentance and Faith

 

[Silverhair]

You are agreeing with Van.

What did I write. "those that trust in the Lord will willingly praise Him". Do you have a problem with what I wrote?

 

[Silverhair]

Understanding of God's Revelation begins with the fear of God, and Total Depravity.

Otherwise things like this can't be seen:
22. The Outward and Inward Calls
23. The New Birth
24. The Doctrine of Conversion
25. Repentance and Faith

Understanding of God's revelation begins with the ability that God has given each man so that they can know the truth of God as He has revealed it to them.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

 

[Alan Gross]

Understanding of God's revelation begins with the ability that God has given each man so that they can know the truth of God as He has revealed it to them.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.
Pro 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

Noo, that's the opposite. God gave Adam ability and he lost it for all of Mankind. These verses are to the Saved that have ability Rescued.