No Bible Doctrine Called Sovereign Grace

[AustinC]

Done and done many times Sir as far as scripture saying things happen by chance. It you cannot do a word search, it is very easy to learn.

Did I say something "triumphs" over God? Nope so yet another disinformation post allowed for no good reason other than to hide truth.

If God allows things to happen by chance, that is according to His will, is consistent with His sovereign choice, and only triumphs over the fictions of foolish falseology folks.

Do it again.
You said:
"But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance.""

Prove that statement. I see nowhere in the past where you have ever proven your assertion in scripture.

Show us where God is a God of chance.

 

[Van]

Do it again.
You said:
"But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance.""

Prove that statement. I see nowhere in the past where you have ever proven your assertion in scripture.

Show us where God is a God of chance.

So you are so ignorant you cannot even do a word search. How could I prove anything to a stonewaller.
Exhaustive determinism is shown to be false doctrine time and again because scripture says things happen sometimes by chance.

 

[JD731]

More caterwauling against God being the Sovereign Creator of the universe, but here is what the Scriptures state:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

None of those verses say or insinuate that God is dealing with man by the principle of sovereign grace. Sovereign grace is a made up doctrine for the purpose of being a necessary prop for some other false made up doctrines. All those verses above have context and someone who just mines verses to support a 180 degree different view than yours could easily do it, and they often do. Verse mining without context is not the way to learn about God and his ways and it is not the way to prove doctrines that are nowhere in the scriptures and are not true.

Grace is associated with mercy and it is a principle that is the highlight of the New Testament in the blood of Jesus Christ, which he shed to take away the sin of the world because of the love of God for sinners, which you deny, and people who holds your views have often verse mined in the Old Testament scriptures without context to prove such a misrepresentation of the true God.

You greatly err and you have no idea just how badly you err.

 

[AustinC]

None of those verses say or insinuate that God is dealing with man by the principle of sovereign grace. Sovereign grace is a made up doctrine for the purpose of being a necessary prop for some other false made up doctrines. All those verses above have context and someone who just mines verses to support a 180 degree different view than yours could easily do it, and they often do. Verse mining without context is not the way to learn about God and his ways and it is not the way to prove doctrines that are nowhere in the scriptures and are not true.

Grace is associated with mercy and it is a principle that is the highlight of the New Testament in the blood of Jesus Christ, which he shed to take away the sin of the world because of the love of God for sinners, which you deny, and people who holds your views have often verse mined in the Old Testament scriptures without context to prove such a misrepresentation of the true God.

You greatly err and you have no idea just how badly you err.

When I read your comments you come across as promoting a god who is weak (not Sovereign and Supreme) and one who only saves those who merit his good pleasure.

Do you not realize that such a god is found in all the pagan religions of the world?

So, is God Sovereign? Yes, without a doubt.

Is God one who graciously chooses to save unworthy rebels? Yes, without a doubt.

Therefore you have Sovereign Grace. It is entirely biblical. To deny it is to deny the core of the gospel.

 

[KenH]

Do you not realize that such a god is found in all the pagan religions of the world?

Bingo! The worship what they have created in their own imaginations. They just don't make it into wood or stone or metal.

 

[AustinC]

So you are so ignorant you cannot even do a word search. How could I prove anything to a stonewaller.
Exhaustive determinism is shown to be false doctrine time and again because scripture says things happen sometimes by chance.

I note that you either cannot or will not prove your own assertion. I quote you:
"But scripture, rather than the clever stories of men, says quite clearly things happen by "chance.""

What is the scripture that teaches " things happen by chance?

You have made the assertion. Surely you can show us your research in the Bible that shows events happening by chance.

I counter with the first words of Daniel 1.

*Daniel 1:1-2*
In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god.

Was it chance that Nebuchadnezzar defeated Judah and overthrew Jerusalem?

 

[JD731]

When I read your comments you come across as promoting a god who is weak (not Sovereign and Supreme) and one who only saves those who merit his good pleasure.

Do you not realize that such a god is found in all the pagan religions of the world?

So, is God Sovereign? Yes, without a doubt.

Is God one who graciously chooses to save unworthy rebels? Yes, without a doubt.

Therefore you have Sovereign Grace. It is entirely biblical. To deny it is to deny the core of the gospel.

God does not present himself as being sovereign in the issue of salvation as sovereignty in salvation is proposed by Calvinists. He said, and I quoted him saying, "you will not come to me that you might have life." He said the reason sinners would not believe is because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Obviously, sinners knows that salvation requires repentance. You would be so foolish to say they cannot come to him because they were not chosen. Jesus Christ is the God Man and he invites sinners to come to him and be saved. Anyone who has ever read the scriptures with any understanding would know this. God the Father, after a convincing proof that all men have sinned and are condemned by it says he will save anyone who will come to him through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross, because he has raised him from the dead.

While God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and he has grace in the OT as well as the new, he did not deal with men under the principle of grace as his primary means during times before the church age, the age in which we are living now. He dealt with men under different principles. He dealt with Israel as a nation in the OT under the principle of the Mosaic Law and he dealt with gentiles under human government. Israel was the only theocracy that has ever been on the earth, and that nation rebelled against God. Gentiles were ruled under human government and separated into national entities. God holds those national rulers responsible of how they rule.

The law was an addendum to the Abrahamic covenant and was to condition Israel for their Messiah, Jesus Christ. When he came Israel would go from the works of the law to the faith of Christ. (Christ is the end of the law. Ro 10:4) One can see that clearly in Ga 3. Look.

Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the (Mosaic) covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after (after the Abrahamic Covenant), cannot disannul, (the Abrahamic Covenant) that it (the Mosaic covenant, the covenant of law) should make the promise (of salvation, the Spirit) of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added (as an addendum to the Abrahmic Covenant) because of transgressions, till the seed (see V 16) should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards (the law) be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (the law of Moses)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The coming of Jesus Christ to die and rise from the dead changes the dynamics of God and now he can give salvation to all who will receive it because all men can believe. Believing with the heart the Lord Jesus for salvation is all that God requires for sinners to be saved because any man, and all men, can believe. This is the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Don't mess this up with false theology, please.

I encourage you to read and meditate on the whole Ga 3 chapter in an epistle written to gentile churches.

 

[JD731]

Ecclesiastes 9:11
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Jesus Christ himself said the following:

Luke 10:31
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with that but I know you would say that God influences all this by circumstances and conviction and so on. I remember fundamentalist preachers saying "If you feel any conviction, or see your need to come to Christ, don't put it off. Act immediately because you may never have another opportunity". And by that they meant both that you didn't know whether you would live and so on but also that the Holy Spirit may never act on you again. I can show you Calvinists like Bonar and Edwards who said this word for word and also guys like John R. Rice. There has to be a level of sovereignty in salvation or these guys would be wrong. And if we pray for people to get saved aren't we asking for sovereign intervention contrary to their will to be applied?

God has always reached out to man and called him to repentance. That is the grace of God that we see in creation, in the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message, etc. While God reaches out to all He does not grab anyone and force them to believe such as we see in the DoG.

God is sovereign but He is not a tyrant that controls all that man think and do which is how some calvinists portray Him.

Those guys are not wrong, God is sovereign in salvation as we can not save ourselves. God saves those that freely trust in Him but calvinists do not seem to understand this or perhaps it is that they know it but just do not want to accept it.

 

[Silverhair]

More caterwauling against God being the Sovereign Creator of the universe, but here is what the Scriptures state:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

Ken you seem to have missed the obvious outcome of those verses if you hold to your deterministic view. Since God controls all that man does then you have just put all sin at His feet. He is the one lone cause of all the evil and pain in the world. But you agree with V. Cheung so must be comfortable with that idea.

But what you refuse to understand is that the bible says you are wrong.

 

[KenH]

But what you refuse to understand is that the bible says you are wrong.

What you don't understand, @Silverhair, is that you are wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

For those interested in why the wicked are far from salvation.

Salvation is far from the wicked: For they seek not thy statutes. - Psalms 119:155

"Salvation is far from the wicked,.... Christ, the author of salvation, is far from them: he was far from the unbelieving Jews, even though salvation was of them, and he, the Saviour, was among them; and he is far from all unconverted persons, as to knowledge of him, faith in him, or love to him; and from all those that seek for salvation elsewhere, let them make ever such pretences to religion: the Gospel of salvation, which they put away from them, as the Jews did in the times of Christ and the apostles; an experimental knowledge of salvation, a sense of need of it, and an application of it, are far from them; and the enjoyment of it in heaven, which, though nearer the saints than when they first believed, is far off from the wicked, and whose damnation is near.

...

for they seek not thy statutes; either to know them, or keep them: they seek not after God, to know him, his mind and will; the language of their hearts and actions is, "depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of thy ways"; no, not of life and salvation, and therefore it must be far from them."

- from John Gill's Bible commentary on Psalms 119:155

Ken that is not new information to anyone on here. Why would you think that the wicked would seek salvation, they like their live. But most people are not wicked and thus can actually respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit or the gospel message.

 

[KenH]

But most people are not wicked

Read the Bible:

Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Silverhair]

What you don't understand, @Silverhair, is that you are wrong.

Ken pulling verses together like you did does not support your view unless you dismiss the reason that Christ came in the first place.

 

[KenH]

Ken pulling verses together like you did does not support your view unless you dismiss the reason that Christ came in the first place.

It is should be clear to anyone who has read this thread that you are opposed to Biblical teaching. You spend your time caterwauling against clear Biblical teaching in post after post after post.

 

[Silverhair]

Read the Bible:

Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Were all under sin but for you to use these verses to support your view you have to dismiss the rest of scripture. I really have not seen anyone that has an open grave in their mouth are that has the poison of asps under their lips. Calvinists jump on these verses as if it is a death knell to any argument against your view. But no such luck as these verses do not prove your point but what they do show is that the Jews and Gentiles fall short of the glory of God.

 

[KenH]

I really have not seen anyone that has an open grave in their mouth are that has the poison of asps under their lips.

I am not surprised that the metaphors are not comprehended by you.

 

[Silverhair]

It is should be clear to anyone who has read this thread that you are opposed to Biblical teaching. You spend your time caterwauling against clear Biblical teaching in post after post after post.

Ken your response just shows that your argument fails and you know it. You attack me rather than respond to what I posted. Your deterministic philosophy negates the atonement of Christ and make the gospel message moot.

 

[KenH]

Your deterministic philosophy negates the atonement of Christ

Does not. But I am not surprised that you do not comprehend it.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not surprised that the metaphors are not comprehended by you.

Oh I understand the metaphors but your calvinist view takes them to far. Read the context and see what Paul was trying to accomplish.