How is God a Just God AND a Savior?

[JonC]

Apparently, @JonC expects anyone who states a position must immediately, at the same time, in the same sermon or in the same article, explain that there are a bunch of wrong views floating around and explain what they are and why they are wrong.

No, that is silly.

I am saying that we should state our position but not then say that it is the ONLY interpretation that addresses the issue.

In other words, I am saying that we should be honest men.

Had Pastor Parker not made the false statement that no other interpretation exists that presents God as just and justifier then I'd have no issue with the OP.

 

[JonC]

So do you believe there are different versions of the gospel of Christ?

No. There is only ONE Gospel. But there are many understandings and positions about the mind of the Father and the results of the gospel.


To borrow from D.A. Carson, when asked to give the gospel of Jesus Christ most Christians can only talk about the impact of the gospel, surrounding doctrines, etc. They do not express the actual gospel, the Christ all Christians share despite differences in understanding.

 

[KenH]

For any passersby that reads this thread, I want to emphasize, so that there is no misunderstanding, that there is only ONE gospel of Christ. There is not a gospel of Christ and then a multitude of ideas that are all true and of equal value. The gospel of Christ is not a smorgasbord. The natural man wants it to be a smorgasbord and that we should just accept anyone's claim to being a Christian if they give some head nod toward certain historical facts about Jesus or claim that they "love" Jesus or live a more moral life than someone else, etc.

Salvation declared in the one true gospel of Christ. Period. And it is a very, very, very serious thing to add man's ideas or man's works into it. Just ask the apostle Paul:

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[JonC]

You disagree with the Scriptures - 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

No, I don't. I am disagreeing with your idea that your understanding equates to universal truth (I am saying you are not God).

I agree that God doesn't author confusion. We own our understanding. Perhaps that is why we are commanded not to lean on it (a command you seem to ignore).

 

[KenH]

I am saying that we should state our position but not then say that it is the ONLY interpretation that addresses the issue.

So you go around espousing views that you know may be wrong concerning the Scriptures, eh? Interesting, and quite revealing.

 

[JonC]

Christ did die for the sins of God's elect instead of the elect, in their place.

Yes, that is your understanding upon which you lean.

And that is my point. Even if your understanding is correct, it is not in God's Word. So why should people treat your understanding as if you are God?

 

[KenH]

They do not express the actual gospel

So, can you tell the readers in the thread what is the "actual" gospel?

 

[KenH]

Yes, that is your understanding upon which you lean.

It is what the Scriptures state. Apparently, you think that the Scriptures are subject to private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[JonC]

So you go around espousing views that you know may be wrong concerning the Scriptures, eh? Interesting, and quite revealing.

No, that is another silly conclusion.

We (Christians) do not espouse views that we believe false. But at the same time we do not lie to people so that they adopt our understanding.

Scripture says the sun stood still. What does that mean? The common meaning today is that the Earth stopped rotating. The common meaning to the OT audience is that the sun and moon were both in the sky midday (it was an ANE cultural omen).

I can state that the Earth stopped spinning, but if I said that is the only view that accounts for the sun standing still then I would be lying or I'd be ignorant of other views.

I'm saying we explain our views, the reasons we believe them and then note other Christians disagree and encourage the church to yest our words against scripture.

 

[JonC]

It is what the Scriptures state. Apparently, you think that the Scriptures are subject to private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

No, it isn't. And that is my point. That is NOT what is written in God's Word, but that is your interpretation of what the passage means.

So what? Why should I care about your understanding? Why should I rely on you rather than God?

We should explain our views but ALWAYS recognize our limitations and encourage others to Scripture rather than tell them our understanding is the only one.

 

[KenH]

it is not in God's Word

Absolutely, God's Word states that Christ died for God's elect - actual people. Christ said so Himself:

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.- John 10:15 (emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

But at the same time we do not lie to people so that they adopt our understanding.

There you go again, calling Bill Parker a liar. You also prove the truth of the very first sentence in the OP - "There are some who ridicule me and other Gospel preachers for emphasizing the Biblical truth of imputation."

 

[KenH]

I'm saying we explain our views, the reasons we believe them and then note other Christians disagree

So you are saying that if someone states a view, then you do think that he is under obligation to immediately, in the same article or sermon, list all of the wrong views and explain why they are wrong.

If one states the truth of God's Word, then one is no under any obligation to explain all of the wrong views that are in opposition to God's Word.

 

[KenH]

So what? Why should I care about your understanding?

Apparently, you do or else you sure are wasting a lot of your time on something that you don't care about.

 

[JonC]

So, can you tell the readers in the thread what is the "actual" gospel?

Yes. The gospel is that the kingdom of God has drawn near and Christ is the Way men can enter this kingdom. It is His death, burial and resurrection.

That is the gospel. What you are doing is talking about the gospel. There is a difference.

Men are not saved by their own understanding. This is something I suspect you will always reject, but it is nonetheless true.

 

[JonC]

So you are saying that if someone states a view, then you do think that he is under obligation to immediately, in the same article or sermon, list all of the wrong views and explain why they are wrong.

If one states the truth of God's Word, then one is no under any obligation to explain all of the wrong views that are in opposition to God's Word.

No.

I am saying that a preacher should teach as he believes and ALWAYS encourage the church to test his words against Scripture.

I am not saying a preacher should present every view. I am saying he should not tell the church his is the only understanding that addresses the issue.

Had Parker not made the claim that his understanding is the only one out there presenting God as just and justifier then I'd have had no problem with his words at all.

I mentioned it initially in passing- I thought it a simple overstatement. You convinced me through your posts that Parker may be lying to his church.

 

[KenH]

Yes.

What do you think one must believe? Or are you one of those that think "well, just love Jesus, doctrine really doesn't matter"?

 

[KenH]

I am saying that a preacher should teach as he believes and ALWAYS encourage the church to test his words against Scripture.

So you don't think that Bill Parker encourages those who attend Eager Avenue Grace Church in Albany, Georgia, to search and study the Scriptures? Wow! That is extremely arrogant on your part.

 

[KenH]

You convinced me through your posts that Parker may be lying to his church.

Wow! More arrogance on your part.

 

[JonC]

What do you think one must believe? Or are you one of those that think "well, just love Jesus, doctrine really doesn't matter"?

Well, that isnt what I said (I used Jesus' words snd Paul's words).

But ti answer your question, yes. IF we love Jesus then that is all that matters. If we love Him we know Him and He knows us. If we live Him we obey His commandments.