"Personal Savior"

[AustinC]

Isn't that the scripture in question? I'm not sure what you want. I don't feel any need to defend Edwards to you if that is what you mean. I gave you the reference. Look up his use of the passage. The fact is in your zeal to ruin someone's joy that they got out of a particular verse you stepped in it because one of the most brilliant reformed theologians of all time used it the same way. But rather than just say well, OK, you tried to take Edwards on. You said to me I bounce around trying to please everyone but I can't help you here. Dig out of this on your own, defender of Reformed Theology.

You know what I am asking. I am asking you to look at the Bible and tell me to whom that verse is addressed. I am asking you to show in scripture how God personally saves someone. Nowhere in the Bible do we see God quietly knocking on a rebels door and asking that person to pretty please let me in. Nowhere. Therefore, any use of Revelation 3:20 as a salvation verse is pure eisegesis and zero exegesis from the passage.

Now, if you want to misuse the Bible in hopes of "persuading" a rebel to stop rebelling, that is between you and God. But don't pretend for a second that Jesus was using that statement to speak to the unregenerate people in Laodicea.

 

[DaveXR650]

You know what I am asking. I am asking you to look at the Bible and tell me to whom that verse is addressed.

The church at Laodicea. Who by the way, according to John MacArthur, were unsaved.

Nowhere in the Bible do we see God quietly knocking on a rebels door and asking that person to pretty please let me in. Nowhere.

That's exactly what he's doing.

By the way, John Owen used that verse too, on several occasions, sometimes as encouragement to Christians, and sometimes in addresses to unsaved people. So should we eliminate him too?

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you remember which Puritans said that and in what work?

who are your favorite Puritans?

I can PM you or we can start a new thread but not on this one unless @robycop3 says it's OK.

 

[AustinC]

The church at Laodicea. Who by the way, according to John MacArthur, were unsaved.


That's exactly what he's doing.

By the way, John Owen used that verse too, on several occasions, sometimes as encouragement to Christians, and sometimes in addresses to unsaved people. So should we eliminate him too?

Read what you are writing. You are falling upon extra-biblical thoughts and utterly avoiding the Bible.
Listen, I find all other thinkers to be inferior to God's word. If you cannot go to God's word, then your comments here are of very little value.

 

[DaveXR650]

Austin you need to take stock of your whole view of things. This was no big deal, just a peripheral add on where someone in passing used Revelation 3:20 in a way that might encourage someone to come to Christ. But you just have to correct everyone like the obnoxious Calvinists tend to do as many in the Calvinist camp have noted.

For the record, when it comes to Revelation 3:20, it was often used by Puritan divines, ancient scholars, and post Puritan but old Calvinist preachers as a way to aid folks in understanding that Jesus sometimes gently invites people to come to him. In addition to these who were almost all Monergistic, we know that many free will leaning pastors use this too. They probably read some of these old guys and that is where they got it.

I have references for sure that Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Thomas Watson, John Bunyan, Horatius Bonar, and St. Ambrose used this passage in that way on occasion. If you want to confine yourself to such a strict exegesis to where you can't listen to preaching without filtering every sentence through the TULIP and the mechanistic determinism of extreme Calvinism then go ahead. But don't try to deconstruct everything that came before.

You're the one who won't let people go to God's word unless it meets the standard of interpretation .....of you, I guess.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you need to take stock of your whole view of things. This was no big deal, just a peripheral add on where someone in passing used Revelation 3:20 in a way that might encourage someone to come to Christ. But you just have to correct everyone like the obnoxious Calvinists tend to do as many in the Calvinist camp have noted.

For the record, when it comes to Revelation 3:20, it was often used by Puritan divines, ancient scholars, and post Puritan but old Calvinist preachers as a way to aid folks in understanding that Jesus sometimes gently invites people to come to him. In addition to these who were almost all Monergistic, we know that many free will leaning pastors use this too. They probably read some of these old guys and that is where they got it.

I have references for sure that Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Thomas Watson, John Bunyan, Horatius Bonar, and St. Ambrose used this passage in that way on occasion. If you want to confine yourself to such a strict exegesis to where you can't listen to preaching without filtering every sentence through the TULIP and the mechanistic determinism of extreme Calvinism then go ahead. But don't try to deconstruct everything that came before.

You're the one who won't let people go to God's word unless it meets the standard of interpretation .....of you, I guess.

What is the context of the passage?
Again, I couldn't care less what anyone else in history has done with that passage. The context determines the interpretation and how it is applied.

Dave, were you a slave to sin before God saved you? What does being a slave entail? Were you living in a cozy cottage, free to do as you pleased?

 

[tyndale1946]

@AustinC . I'm not offended but Jonathan Edwards is mad at you, I hear. Let's not go on since this is off topic. But this is:

"What is true religion? Here is a question we need to ask ourselves; and in the case of Edwards the answer is perfectly clear. It is what is called today an existential meeting with God. God and myself, these 'two only realities'. Religion is something, to Edwards, that belongs essentially to the heart. It is essentially experimental, essentially practical." From The Puritans, page 357, by D.M. Lloyd-Jones

So in other words, an individual encounter one on one with God.

My wife a previous English teacher in a Public School, one of the stories in her classes Literature Book was the sermon by Jonathan Edwards "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God" and I also read it... But what I didn't realize at the time, that just wasn't a sermon that you hear and think about later but it one was as I researched it... Shook the whole town of Enfield Connecticut a great impact on revivals at that time... The following article is the summary of that event and the aftermath and how the town had an encounter with God... Brother Glen

This Day in History: Jonathan Edwards Preaches “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”

 

[Marooncat79]

Now Days we have “ God in the Hands of Angry Sinners”

yes there really is a book w that name

 

[robycop3]

I can PM you or we can start a new thread but not on this one unless @robycop3 says it's OK.

I have no objections.

 

[robycop3]

Well you brought up the knocking on the door thing which triggered the Calvinists like yelling "squirrel" when you're near my dog.
But it's your thread and I respect that. But notice how some of the Calvinists don't think Jesus knocks at all, he crashes the door like a commando. I say he might knock and then he might stop knocking. Others say no, he keeps on knocking. One thing I know is that we Calvinists have it all together and we never use scripture out of context. Well, except when we take Lazarus being raised from the dead the same as a spiritually dead person being made alive, but other than that.

Jesus Himself SAID He knocks, & that's good enough for me !

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you remember which Puritans said that and in what work?

who are your favorite Puritans?

I have no objections.

The use of the scene in Revelation 3:20 where Jesus himself is "standing at the door" and knocking as a means of showing the love and tenderness of our Savior in the seeking of individual souls, I have found in the works of Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Watson who were Puritans. I have also found it in the writings of St. Ambrose, Horatius Bonar, and Richard Baxter. Let me be clear: I am talking about this story being used just like the song we learned as children, where Jesus is standing at the door of our hearts and knocking.

I had noticed this in my previous reading because it has always bothered me the way the modern Calvinist movement tries to deconstruct and demolish credibility in everything that came before them. But I can't remember all this and the only one off the top of my head was Edwards sermon. But it you have a Kindle or writings on computer you can quickly search. Just put in "knock" and up they come. I'm not going to give the references here because I don' have time but I can if you need them. Those are also some of my favorite Puritan and other writers. I have read all the above extensively except Ambrose.

I want to be clear here. Owen, Edwards, Watson and Bunyan were HEAVY on the absolute sovereignty of God. Bonar was a strong Calvinist but there again, some modern Calvinists say he was too "free grace". I believe that God is absolutely sovereign in our salvation. My point here is to show everyone whether you are a Calvinist or not, that these guys had no problem showing Jesus in this loving, merciful way. If you read them you will find they can also thunder about God's wrath and power.

What you also see here is the reason I have serious concerns about modern, militant Calvinists who came to their opinion from internet arguments instead of reading the rich literature of the guys who lived it.

Apologies again to @robycop3 for being off topic If someone wants to start another thread on this passage then that is OK with me.

 

[Marooncat79]

Jesus said He is the Door!!

is Jesus knocking on Himself?

 

[AustinC]

Jesus Himself SAID He knocks, & that's good enough for me !

He does...at the door of his children's hearts...since he desires to dine at the table with us.

The unredeemed are shackled in the dungeon of their master named "Sin." Jesus comes to you with his "SEAL team" to break you out of your bondage and make you alive with Christ.

Jesus is the personal "Savior." He is not the personal "solicitor" when you are still in bondage.

 

[AustinC]

The use of the scene in Revelation 3:20 where Jesus himself is "standing at the door" and knocking as a means of showing the love and tenderness of our Savior in the seeking of individual souls, I have found in the works of Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Watson who were Puritans. I have also found it in the writings of St. Ambrose, Horatius Bonar, and Richard Baxter. Let me be clear: I am talking about this story being used just like the song we learned as children, where Jesus is standing at the door of our hearts and knocking.

I had noticed this in my previous reading because it has always bothered me the way the modern Calvinist movement tries to deconstruct and demolish credibility in everything that came before them. But I can't remember all this and the only one off the top of my head was Edwards sermon. But it you have a Kindle or writings on computer you can quickly search. Just put in "knock" and up they come. I'm not going to give the references here because I don' have time but I can if you need them. Those are also some of my favorite Puritan and other writers. I have read all the above extensively except Ambrose.

I want to be clear here. Owen, Edwards, Watson and Bunyan were HEAVY on the absolute sovereignty of God. Bonar was a strong Calvinist but there again, some modern Calvinists say he was too "free grace". I believe that God is absolutely sovereign in our salvation. My point here is to show everyone whether you are a Calvinist or not, that these guys had no problem showing Jesus in this loving, merciful way. If you read them you will find they can also thunder about God's wrath and power.

What you also see here is the reason I have serious concerns about modern, militant Calvinists who came to their opinion from internet arguments instead of reading the rich literature of the guys who lived it.

Apologies again to @robycop3 for being off topic If someone wants to start another thread on this passage then that is OK with me.

So what you're saying is you're speaking off the top of your head, throwing out names of former saints, and ignoring the context of God's word while denigrating anyone who calls for context. Got it.

 

[kyredneck]

your zeal to ruin someone's joy

...i luv it...

 

[robycop3]

He does...at the door of his children's hearts...since he desires to dine at the table with us.

The unredeemed are shackled in the dungeon of their master named "Sin." Jesus comes to you with his "SEAL team" to break you out of your bondage and make you alive with Christ.

Jesus is the personal "Savior." He is not the personal "solicitor" when you are still in bondage.

He "knocks" at EVERYONE'S door at one time or another; some longer than others. But EVERYONE now living is eligible for redemption.

 

[Marooncat79]

He "knocks" at EVERYONE'S door at one time or another; some longer than others. But EVERYONE now living is eligible for redemption.

even those who have never heard the Gospel?

 

[DaveXR650]

Jesus said He is the Door!!

is Jesus knocking on Himself?

He is also a shepherd, a vine, the Light, the Word and the way the truth and the life. All those can be used. Don't be silly.

 

[AustinC]

He "knocks" at EVERYONE'S door at one time or another; some longer than others. But EVERYONE now living is eligible for redemption.

This is a very romantic thought. One you might find in a Hallmark movie. But, it's not what the Bible actually teaches.

The Bible tells us to preach to all people. The good news will only be received by those whom God has given to Jesus. God must choose to make the individual alive with Christ and thus give them ears to hear and eyes to see. The positive response of an individual to the gospel is an effect of God causing them to be made alive.

So, salvation is particular and personal because God chooses whom He will save.

 

[robycop3]

This is a very romantic thought. One you might find in a Hallmark movie. But, it's not what the Bible actually teaches.

The Bible tells us to preach to all people. The good news will only be received by those whom God has given to Jesus. God must choose to make the individual alive with Christ and thus give them ears to hear and eyes to see. The positive response of an individual to the gospel is an effect of God causing them to be made alive.

So, salvation is particular and personal because God chooses whom He will save.

Scripture teaches that God does NOT want anyone to perish.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.