Who's Strongest? God Or The Devil?

[kyredneck]

4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

Considering the 'whole lump' of mankind from Adam to the last one born, are there more 'vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', or are there more 'vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory'?

"I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the preeminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the preeminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number." —Charles Spurgeon

Primitive Baptists in general agree with Spurgeon.

 

[KenH]

It is not a contest. We are mere creatures, not the Creator. We are mere clay, God is the Potter.

"The other side of the doctrine of election is the doctrine of REPROBATION. Just as God has created and chosen some people for salvation, he has created and chosen all others for damnation. Just as he has determined which specific individuals would be saved, he has determined which specific individuals would be damned:

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath – prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:21-22)

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message – which is also what they were destined for. (1 Peter 2:7-8)

Theologians attempt to dilute this doctrine by suggesting that God merely "passes over" the reprobates. However, the Bible not only teaches that God deliberately creates some people as reprobates (Romans 9:21-22), but it also teaches that God actively hardens their hearts against himself and the gospel:

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Exodus 10:20)

For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Joshua 11:20)

Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)

He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn – and I would heal them. (John 12:40)

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Romans 9:18)

What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." (Romans 11:7-8)

We have established that creatures have no free will, and that human responsibility has no direct relationship to human freedom. God controls all things, including the thoughts and actions of man, but man is still responsible for his thoughts and actions precisely because God sovereignly holds him accountable.

Responsibility presupposes accountability, but accountability does not presuppose ability or freedom. Rather, accountability presupposes one who demands accountability. Since God demands accountability – since he will reward righteousness and punish wickedness – man is accountable. Since God is sovereign, he decides what he wants to decide, and whether man has free will or not has no logical place in the discussion."

- excerpt from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology

 

[kyredneck]

It is not a contest. We are mere creatures, not the Creator. We are mere clay, God is the Potter.

The title question is rhetorical Ken. You're preaching to the choir. Care to give your thoughts on the question in the OP?

"Considering the 'whole lump' of mankind from Adam to the last one born, are there more 'vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', or are there more 'vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory'?"

 

[KenH]

The question is rhetorical Ken. You're preaching to the choir. Care to give your thoughts on the question in the OP?

"Considering the 'whole lump' of mankind from Adam to the last one born, are there more 'vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', or are there more 'vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory'?"

Well, all I know is what Christ said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[KenH]

The title question is rhetorical Ken. You're preaching to the choir. Care to give your thoughts on the question in the OP?

"Considering the 'whole lump' of mankind from Adam to the last one born, are there more 'vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', or are there more 'vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory'?"

I don't how many people God will eventually create in total in all of history. But just say it is 100 billion people. If even 5% are God's elect, that would be 5 billion people. That is a LOT of people.

 

[kyredneck]

I don't how many people God will eventually create in total in all of history. But just say it is 100 billion people. If even 5% are God's elect, that would be 5 billion people. That is a LOT of people.

God - 5%
Satan - 95%

Doesn't sound right to me.

 

[KenH]

God - 5%
Satan - 95%

Doesn't sound right to me.

Based on what? Human emotions? Human desires? The bottom line is we don't have any idea. That is a secret thing that belongs to God that He has not revealed to us(Deuteronomy 29:29).

 

[KenH]

God - 5%
Satan - 95%

Doesn't sound right to me.

Also, Satan doesn't "have" 95%. This is God's creation, of which Satan is a part. Satan has no more free will than we humans or any other creature does - meaning zero, zilch, nada.

 

[kyredneck]

Well, all I know is what Christ said:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Well, all I know is what Christ said:

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

The passage you cite is prophetic, addressed to the Jews of that generation, has zero, zilch, nada mention of hell, and the "few that find it" are the remnant of Jews mentioned in Romans 11:5. Two out of three Jews were to perish in the wrath to come upon that generation - Zechariah 13:8.

 

[DaveXR650]

The passage you cite is prophetic, addressed to the Jews of that generation, has zero, zilch, nada mention of hell, and the "few that find it" are the remnant of Jews mentioned in Romans 11:5.

Ky, you're a walking billboard for why everyone should use commentaries.

 

[tyndale1946]

Also, Satan doesn't "have" 95%. This is God's creation, of which Satan is a part. Satan has no more free will than we humans or any other creature does - meaning zero, zilch, nada.

Romans 11... Hath God cast away his people which he foreknew?... One of the strongest languages in scripture... GOD FORBID!... This Prim believes that a God will SAVE a multitude, no man can number... Romans 11 is showing the mercy of God by showing Israel had belief when the Gentiles are in unbelief and NOW the Gentiles have belief while the Jews are in unbelief... The Jew didn't blind themselves God did according to his way and his purpose... I agree with Spurgeon!... Brother Glen

Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[kyredneck]

Ky, you're a walking billboard for why everyone should use commentaries.

Oh, trust me, I've plenty of extra-Biblical commentary I could use. Did you notice the Spurgeon quote in the OP?

Care to cite some scripture that refutes the scripture I've cited; or is other people's opinion all you got?

 

[DaveXR650]

Care to cite some scripture that refutes the scripture I've cited; or is other people's opinion all you got?

You mean the Matthew 7:13-14? Why would I need to cite scripture to refute scripture? Nobody does that. Your application of Matthew 7:13-14 is wrong. Regarding the OP, I have that sermon somewhere and I don't think the relative statistics of who all are going to heaven was the main topic but I have no problem with you agreeing with Spurgeon or Ken.

 

[kyredneck]

You mean the Matthew 7:13-14?

Yea.

Why would I need to cite scripture to refute scripture?

What else you going to use, the Koran? Talmud?

Nobody does that.

Lol, FYI, it's been done a kazillion times right here on the BB DEBATE boards.

Your application of Matthew 7:13-14 is wrong.

Prove it from scripture, if you're able.

 

[DaveXR650]

Prove it from scripture, if you're able.

Why would I try to prove the scripture wrong? I agree with the scripture. What I disagree with is your incorrect application of the scripture. You're the one who complains when I cite someone else's work. So I won't mention all the sources that disagree with you. And you are not allowed, and probably unable, to come up with anyone else who agrees with your application. So, here we are.

 

[AustinC]

God - 5%
Satan - 95%

Doesn't sound right to me.

This is just horrible thinking.
Satan is utterly hellbound. Satan 0%.
Any percent of humanity that God chooses to be gracious to is so vastly more than is deserved. The just action of God would be 100% of humanity spend eternity in hell as wretched rebels against a holy Creator.
God, being gracious to just one, required the substitutionary death of his holy son so that wretches would be redeemed.

Once again, humans want to know how God chose and mostly they cannot stand the idea that God chose only some, not all. The Universalist, of course, gets around this by saying that all are, or eventually everyone will be, saved. The free will person tries to remove God from the issue so they can blame man for a bad choice. The Reformed entrust God to His Sovereign choice and realize it was by amazing grace alone that they are atoned for and given faith to believe.

ky, I can't even imagine thinking the way you do in trying to make salvation a contest between God and Satan. You lift up Satan far above his station.

 

[canadyjd]

…..

"I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the preeminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the preeminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise…...

Spurgeon misunderstands he’ll. Satan does not rule hell. Satan does not have dominion over hell.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire with the demons and all of the lost. He burn for eternity like all the rest.

On the other hand, I agree there will be more people in heaven than in hell, but for a unique reason.

I believe all babies that die go to heaven. I also believe life begins at conception. Historically, the majority of people that are born die in early childhood. That is still true in some parts of the world.

Additionally, medical experts estimate up to 70% of children that are conceived never implant in the womb and are miscarried in the next menstrual cycle.

Based on those numbers, probably 80-90% of people conceived in the womb, end up in heaven!!!!!

I find great comfort in that thought.

peace to you

 

[KenH]

Based on those numbers, probably 80-90% of people conceived in the womb, end up in heaven!!!!!

Maybe. There is no way for us mere humans to know how many people that God saves by His sovereign grace - how many that Christ paid their sin debt and His perfect righteousness was imputed to.

 

[canadyjd]

Maybe. There is no way for us mere humans to know how many people that God saves by His sovereign grace - how many that Christ paid their sin debt and His perfect righteousness was imputed to.

Right. Since we don’t know, we can assume the best.

peace to you

 

[tyndale1946]

Maybe. There is no way for us mere humans to know how many people that God saves by His sovereign grace - how many that Christ paid their sin debt and His perfect righteousness was imputed to.

No but we have evidence... Brother Glen

1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Not eros love but agape love... If he didn't get it from God, where did he get it?

I hear many say now wait a minute... We are ALL born in the image of God!... So are you calling David a liar?... We are ALL born the same way!

Psalms 51: 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

And Ken you want to know the definition of Sovereign Grace!

1 John 4: 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.