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Was Hebrews written to believers or unbelievers?

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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
In all the dispensations salvation has always been grace through faith.
A oft repeated canard that is specifically denied of Paul:

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

To quote Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Actually, no. I am not dealing with how men are saved from the penalty of their sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire. I am dealing with dispensational divisions and how God is bringing to pass his will for mankind in spite of unbelief and opposition from man and Satan. God has presented himself as absolutely holy and has demanded that man be as holy as he is in order to have fellowship with him and to be accepted of him. God is the judge of all men, even the man Christ Jesus. God has determined that Jesus Christ is the only man who has achieved this perfection and therefore he has accepted his sacrifice for the sins of the whole world, Jews and gentiles, and whatever other divisions there are in world history, and has promised that he will impute the perfect righteousness of his son to the account of anyone who from the heart will repent of their sins and trust the promise of God through Jesus his perfect Son, whose blood washes their sins away.

That perfect righteousness is in the form of a member of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, who indwelt the body of Jesus Christ from his conception, and still does, and always will. It was he, living in the body of Jesus Christ, who empowered him to perfection in the flesh. Jesus Christ is the only man who possessed the Spirit of God from his physical birth, and all other men must be "born again" in order for this transaction to take place. God, the judge, must "justify" the man who makes an appeal for this pardon of his death sentence through Jesus Christ as his substitute who died for him, because he is not only the judge, judging the heart, but he is also the administrator of the gift of the Spirit of Christ, who is eternal life, and the agency of the new birth as a son of God in all who believe.

God has not changed ever in the principle of his justification. It has always been by faith in what he has promised. Faith is defined as the confidence of man in the faithfulness of God to keep and deliver on his promise, and that confidence is manifest in obedience to the will and desire of God, no questions asked. This is the manner in which others can see the heart felt conviction that God is real and that his holiness is of greatest importance in the family of God.

While the nation of Israel, formed through the seed of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, were the special people of God whom he himself raised up to teach the other nations about himself by his interaction with them, they were not children of God because of it. They were children of Abraham and they made great boast about that. They were children of the flesh. They were given his laws and those laws, if kept perfectly, would have proven that they were righteous. But they had just the opposite effect, they proved them unrighteous and in need of a savior. That was the purpose of God. Through them he brought this savior into the world and displayed him in public to the world as he paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, including the children of Abraham, in his own body on the cross.

This is the only gospel that saves men from the penalty of their sins, which is the second death in the lake of fire. It does not matter who you are or where you live or who your earthly parents are. This is the only way to God and the only way to be born again and to be reconciled to God, the judge of all men. One must believe with confidence from the heart that Jesus Christ died for all men and that God will receive all men who come in his name, JUST BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD! He will not save anyone who will not come to him by faith.

I wanted to get this straight so there will be no doubt of what I believe about salvation. But whatever I believe, it does not negate a single promise that God has made to different peoples and nations. He has made many promises to Israel concerning the land and their status as an eternal nation with 12 tribes. Obviously he has not kept those promises in this last two thousand years while he is forming the church of Jesus Christ, which includes both converts of Israel, Jews, and converts from all the other nations of the world, Gentiles. This does not mean he will not keep his national promises to them, or even that he cannot keep them, it just means that he will keep them when he has completed his formation of the church, which is his body and his bride in the same way that Eve was taken from the body of Adam and formed into his bride and the two, when married, became one flesh, according to God.

In case no one has ever read about it, there is a marriage of the Lamb prophesied by the men of God who wrote his word under his inspiration, coming sometime out there in the future. That will not happen in this age. There is much water to flow under the bridge in this world before that is fulfilled.

The scriptures do make wonderful sense but they are written from God's point of view. One must learn to think like he thinks in order to understand the deep things of God, and he must have the Spirit of God to teach him.

Ok, thank you for clarifying your position. Your previous points could have been taken out of a hyper-dispensationalist textbook, but alright. :Thumbsdown
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Yes, as AustinC says, there is more than one view of dispensationalism. But then he goes on to rail against one view, Traditional Dispensationalism.and ignores Progressive Dispensationalism.
There is more than one view of everything.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
A oft repeated canard that is specifically denied of Paul:

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

To quote Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
It should be understood the Galatians 3:11 quote cites from Habakkuk 2:4 which was during the Old Covenant Law.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
It should be understood the Galatians 3:11 quote cites from Habakkuk 2:4 which was during the Old Covenant Law.

Which, according to Paul's own point was a prophecy of things to come, not a description of things as they were under the law:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

V.12, the very next after v.11, shuts the door on the idea that Habakkuk was describing OT salvation.

Gal 3:13 Christ
[NOW IN THE NT] hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[...]
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Paul quotes Habakkuk 2:4 as prophesying that things would one day change and therefore makes the point that his NOVEL teaching of salvation by faith alone was in line with scriptural prophecy.

There are nuances of justification involved but we can discuss that as it comes up in the conversation.
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
Which, according to Paul's own point was a prophecy of things to come, not a description of things as they were under the law: . . .
I have to disagree. It does not negate Paul arguements how faith was to replace the Law. Which you well cited.
See Galatians 3:16-17. . .
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
It should be understood the Galatians 3:11 quote cites from Habakkuk 2:4 which was during the Old Covenant Law.

8, The principle of grace is just one principle that God has established as an operative principle of his divine dealing with men to further his end goal for men and to make himself known to us. This does not mean he had no grace at other times or that he did not on occasion act in grace when another principle was the operative principle.

I doubt that anyone could say that the law of God, which demanded the death penalty for a son in a family for being uncontrollable, is a measure of grace for the person being killed. If one compares that with true grace when God has lifted his death penalty for all kinds of crimes for all Israel and the rest of the world during this age when by his death he ended the principle of the Law of Moses as their operative principle and established another in it's place.

An example of grace extended by God under the law was God dealing with David after he had committed 2 sins for which the Law of Moses demanded death. Those were the sins of adultery and murder.

Now, by the cross of Christ, the law of Moses was taken away.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life
Hebrews 10:9

If he took the law away, what did it leave?

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law

2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

He 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no sin that can be imputed to men in the world at this time because Jesus has taken it away. This is why God has given believers the ministry of reconciliation to unbelievers.

Is this the greatest news any sinner can receive?? Yes, it is!
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Soteriology changes, as had been prophesied by Habakkuk 2:4.
No. Faith was before the Law and continued during the Law. Hebrews 11.

Romans 3:19-20, ". . .Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. . . ."

1 John 3:4, ". . . Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. . . ."
 
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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
No. Faith was before the Law and continued during the Law. Hebrews 11.

Romans 3:19-20, ". . .Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. . . ."

1 John 3:4, ". . . Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. . . ."

Well of course. But Hebrews 11 is not about soteriology, which is what we are discussing.
The faith to subdue kingdoms, work righteousness, obtain promises, stop the mouth of lions (Heb.11:33, et al.) had no more to do with obtaining saving grace than it does now.

Does:

2Co 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

have any bearing on salvation?
Of course not. Likewise Hebrews 11.

Paul is categorical in Galatians (and Romans) that salvation under the law was not by faith alone.

As as stated, as concerning justification, there are nuances involved between the OT and NT.
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
Well of course. But Hebrews 11 is not about soteriology, which is what we are discussing.
The faith to subdue kingdoms, work righteousness, obtain promises, stop the mouth of lions (Heb.11:33, et al.) had no more to do with obtaining saving grace than it does now.

Does:

2Co 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

have any bearing on salvation?
Of course not. Likewise Hebrews 11.

Paul is categorical in Galatians (and Romans) that salvation under the law was not by faith alone.

As as stated, as concerning justification, there are nuances involved between the OT and NT.

Soteriology has always been by grace through faith across all dispensations.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
The Son of God has always been creation's sole access to God. John 14:6, John 1:18, John 1:1-3, Ephesians 3:9.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
The Son of God has always been creation's sole access to God. John 14:6, John 1:18, John 1:1-3, Ephesians 3:9.

Strange. What were all those blood sacrifices before Jesus, the Son of God came, all about?

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Did you know that many in Israel believed his claim to be the Son of God, but not even his closest apostles believed he would die in Jerusalem, be buried, and rise from the dead three days later. If you had read the eye witness account of his earthly ministry recorded in the 4 gospels and believed what you read, you would agree. It was not until he had left Galilee for the last time to go to Jerusalem to keep the Passover, where he would accomplish redemption, that he began to make this known to them. None understood it. This was in the context of his kingdom, which he had just shown them on the mount of transfiguration. This event was an actual preview of the kingdom that the OT prophets had written about and it was the kingdom that these apostles and prophets that had ministered with him for these 3 1/2 years had been preaching about. It was to be a theocratic government of the whole world with the God Man on the throne and all the subjects saved. A study of this transfiguration and a correct application of the people involved, both on the mountain and below the mountain, as typical of the actual kingdom, will help to correct a lot of bad theology that is poured out here every day.

None of this could ever be realized if Jesus Christ had not submitted himself to that cross as the sinless Son of God, willingly dying for the citizens of that kingdom and paying their sin debt and making those who believe a new creature by giving them the Spirit, who was likewise on that mountain that day in the cloud. Preparing and equipping the citizens of this kingdom is what the New Testament is all about. The King has power to raise the dead and those through the centuries since that day that have believed will be raised with a new body and will enter that kingdom. Jesus said a man must be born again to enter it. Before he inaugurates it he will destroy all rebels off the earth. All the citizens who enter in will have chosen before to be there by choosing to believe the word of God and obeying it.

One thing is sure, that kingdom has not come yet, but it sure will come. There is much to know about this kingdom, but it is a theme of the scriptures from beginning to end and for most religious organizations it does not even rate as a topic of discussion, much less the end to which God in his providence is taking mankind.

Psalm 115:16
The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

His apostles, his preachers, were instructed by him not to make this kingdom event on the mountain known until after he rose from the dead. There was a reason for that and it was that Israel must believe in his person first before they could believe he is the anointed Christ, the King. They must believe that he is the Son of God and they must believe the Father. There is an order to the revelation of God for each of us.

He 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he (God) is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
 
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