The Mark is coming

[Cathode]

Perhaps you haven't read of Judas or Pharaoh.

God had foreknowledge of their betrayal and rejection of God, but they made the choice.

“What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?“

Judas made a choice.

Judas wasn’t created to be destroyed.

Judas was chosen as a disciple even though Jesus knew Judas would betray Him.

“Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)”

Jesus also knew Judas would make another decision, to despair and kill himself.

“ better for that man, had he never been born “

In all this, Judas made his own decisions.

In the case of Pharaoh the same thing.

Five times we read Pharaoh decided to “harden his heart “ against God.

So even though in both cases we see the foreknowledge of God, even prophecy, the decisions people made were their own.

 

[Cathode]

See how wrongful people’s interpretations and perceptions of God can be.

God desires all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth, because He is Love that desires for our good.
He is The Truth itself, and can not Father a lie.

A wrongful understanding of Scripture will give you a wrongful and unjust perception of God.

 

[AustinC]

See how wrongful people’s interpretations and perceptions of God can be.

God desires all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth, because He is Love that desires for our good.
He is The Truth itself, and can not Father a lie.

A wrongful understanding of Scripture will give you a wrongful and unjust perception of God.

I read what you wrote here and note that it is a wrong interpretation. Therefore you condemn yourself.

 

[Cathode]

I read what you wrote here and note that it is a wrong interpretation. Therefore you condemn yourself.

No, you have crowned yourself arbiter of Truth and therefore you condemn others.

What do you disagree with in my reply.

That God is Love, and desires all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

You have built a great altar to your need to be right and have made profane unscriptural sacrifice unto it.

 

[Silverhair]

No, you have crowned yourself arbiter of Truth and therefore you condemn others.

What do you disagree with in my reply.

That God is Love, and desires all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

You have built a great altar to your need to be right and have made profane unscriptural sacrifice unto it.

@Cathode you have to realize that Austin always thinks he is right but he can't help it, God determined him to be that way.

 

[AustinC]

No, you have crowned yourself arbiter of Truth and therefore you condemn others.

What do you disagree with in my reply.

That God is Love, and desires all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

You have built a great altar to your need to be right and have made profane unscriptural sacrifice unto it.

I disagree with your interpretation of love and the universalism you use, which ultimately makes God a liar.
You seem more than comfortable with living in massive contradiction (as Sliverhair does) without ever considering that a loving God executes justice. You seem to openly ignore context in the passage where it says God desires all men to be saved. If you would take only 5 minutes to read through the verses that come before this, you would see what Paul is saying, but will you? Likely not, because the whole of scripture would destroy the narrative you have clung to.

 

[Michael Hollner]

How does a thread called "The Mark is Coming" turn into a debate on determinism or Calvinism? Why don't those who hold to Calvinism read Dr. Ken Wilson's dissertation on the "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism"? Even Dr. James White refuses to debate Dr. Wilson over this.

But yes, I agree, the foundations for the mark and the framework are being prepared.

 

[Marooncat79]

What is his reasoning for not wanting to debate?

white is not obligated

maybe he sees futility in trying to debate someone for his own reason?

maybe he doesn’t want to beat his head against the wall

 

[Michael Hollner]

What is his reasoning for not wanting to debate?

white is not obligated

maybe he sees futility in trying to debate someone for his own reason?

maybe he doesn’t want to beat his head against the wall

Well, he is somewhat is obligated after claiming he was preparing to debate Dr. Wilson on his Dividing Line program and never came through with his claim. Dr. Wilson has repeatedly offered to debate but White has backed down the same way he did with Ruckman years ago.

'maybe he doesn’t want to beat his head against the wall'

Maybe he is afraid his philosophy will be exposed and is using excuses not to debate Dr. Wilson.

 

[Marooncat79]

Peter Ruckman is laughable and sad at the same time

I can assure you that White is NOT afraid of him

 

[Cathode]

How does a thread called "The Mark is Coming" turn into a debate on determinism or Calvinism? Why don't those who hold to Calvinism read Dr. Ken Wilson's dissertation on the "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism"? Even Dr. James White refuses to debate Dr. Wilson over this.View attachment 7247

 

[Cathode]

How does a thread called "The Mark is Coming" turn into a debate on determinism or Calvinism? Why don't those who hold to Calvinism read Dr. Ken Wilson's dissertation on the "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism"? Even Dr. James White refuses to debate Dr. Wilson over this.View attachment 7247

Yes the thread headed off into the weeds I’m afraid.

But yes, I agree, the foundations for the mark and the framework are being prepared.

Are you seeing the framework as outlined in my OP?

 

[Michael Hollner]

Yes the thread headed off into the weeds I’m afraid.



Are you seeing the framework as outlined in my OP?

'Are you seeing the framework as outlined in my OP?'

Unfortunately, yes. I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime and I am praying for divine intervention and asking God to buy us some time. I am also mid-trib but wish in my heart pre-trib was right for I am ready to go and would love nothing more than for Christ to take us away from it all TODAY.

But even in the midst of it all there is hope (Acts 3:19-21) KJV. God does have a plan of restoration and counter measures (Rev 11:3-13; Isa 59:19) KJV.

 

[Cathode]

'Are you seeing the framework as outlined in my OP?'

Unfortunately, yes. I have never seen anything like this in my lifetime and I am praying for divine intervention and asking God to buy us some time. I am also mid-trib but wish in my heart pre-trib was right for I am ready to go and would love nothing more than for Christ to take us away from it all TODAY.

But even in the midst of it all there is hope (Acts 3:19-21) KJV. God does have a plan of restoration and counter measures (Rev 11:3-13; Isa 59:19) KJV.

I wouldn’t get your hopes up for rapture mate, it’s not a Christian doctrine. The Church will be persecuted into the solitudes, Christians will be excluded from the economy and society, they will be living in the wilderness.

I believe Exodus is the proto scenario to look at, Pharaoh and the anti christ are cut from the same kind of cloth.

There will be refuges for Christians and they will be totally reliant on Divine Providence. When all human resources and effort fail, the remnant Church will see the power of God as Israel witnessed it.
The plagues of the Apocalypse will play out similarly like the plagues of Egypt.

Just follow your angel guardians as they direct you, they will appear in the moment of need and you must follow them immediately and without any delay, taking nothing.
They never muck around, and don’t hang around longer than their mission. The time they arrive is the time you go, they will have everything you need. The evil spirits will be visible as a pestilence, they will be behind the false signs and wonders but God’s angels will also be visible to all as well, the unveiling will reveal everything.

 

[Michael Hollner]

I wouldn’t get your hopes up for rapture mate, it’s not a Christian doctrine. The Church will be persecuted into the solitudes, Christians will be excluded from the economy and society, they will be living in the wilderness.

I believe Exodus is the proto scenario to look at, Pharaoh and the anti christ are cut from the same kind of cloth.

There will be refuges for Christians and they will be totally reliant on Divine Providence. When all human resources and effort fail, the remnant Church will see the power of God as Israel witnessed it.
The plagues of the Apocalypse will play out similarly like the plagues of Egypt.

Just follow your angel guardians as they direct you, they will appear in the moment of need and you must follow them immediately and without any delay, taking nothing.
They never muck around, and don’t hang around longer than their mission. The time they arrive is the time you go, they will have everything you need. The evil spirits will be visible as a pestilence, they will be behind the false signs and wonders but God’s angels will also be visible to all as well, the unveiling will reveal everything.

'I wouldn’t get your hopes up for rapture mate, it’s not a Christian doctrine'

Some call it being 'caught up' according to Scripture, that being, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (I Thessalonians 4:16-17) KJV. I trust the Scriptures on being 'caught up in the clouds' with the Lord but believe it will be halfway into the seven-year tribulation period.

But I agree with much of what you're saying in that there will be hard times coming (along with restoration) with the worst of it during the last 3 1/2 years. Thus, your OP about 'The Mark is Coming' is accurate. As far as the Pharaoh comparison, remember that God did make a difference with the Israelites in Goshen. The 'remnant Church' as you call it I believe is the Bride of Christ.

Blessings....

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The message of revelation is a very simple one: THE LAMB WINS
The Mark has been with us ever since Revelation was written. Christians in the Roman Empire could not practise a trade unless they were prepared to offer a pinch of incense to whatever deity their trade was dedicated to.
During the Middle Ages, one had to attend the 'mass' and pretend that God was a piece of bread or be burned. In the 17th Century, in England, Baptists were persecuted and until the 19th Century you had to be Church of England to go to University.
Today in Islamic countries one cannot get a proper job unless one recites the appropriate verse from the Koran; in India you have to bow down before the elephant god, and so it goes on.
In atheist countries like China and North Korea things are even worse. So why should we in the West suppose that we shall be immune indefinitely

 

[Cathode]

During the Middle Ages, one had to attend the 'mass' and pretend that God was a piece of bread or be burned.

No, pretending to be Catholic was the problem. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

We live in a pluralist society today, but in the homogenous western culture of the past, heresy meant war and social upheaval and was something to be greatly avoided.

The Catholic Authorities had no problem with you being Jewish or Moorish, so long as as you weren’t pretending to be Catholic and at the same time holding heterodox beliefs.

They put you in a category as other, and in reality you faced no physical or mortal penalty.

What happened to a few Jewish traders who feigned conversion to get more favourable business with the state, was that they attracted the gaze of the Spanish Inquisition.

Don’t pretend to be Catholic while holding antithetical beliefs, was the message, subversives were enemy number one. And if you declared yourself Catholic, whilst not, you put yourself underneath the Catholic authorities to judge your orthodoxy.

The Spanish Inquisition was highly advanced for its time. You had rules of evidence, have representation, to face your accuser, and as a result many people preferred to have their complaints heard by the Inquisition than by the Spanish State. ( they wanted to make it a religious matter )
This at a time when trial by ordeal and combat were an acceptable form of justice system. The various European states dealt out “ Justice “ far harsher than the Spanish Inquisition.

History is far more fascinating when you read it without prejudiced glasses on.

 

[AustinC]

No, pretending to be Catholic was the problem. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

We live in a pluralist society today, but in the homogenous western culture of the past, heresy meant war and social upheaval and was something to be greatly avoided.

The Catholic Authorities had no problem with you being Jewish or Moorish, so long as as you weren’t pretending to be Catholic and at the same time holding heterodox beliefs.

They put you in a category as other, and in reality you faced no physical or mortal penalty.

What happened to a few Jewish traders who feigned conversion to get more favourable business with the state, was that they attracted the gaze of the Spanish Inquisition.

Don’t pretend to be Catholic while holding antithetical beliefs, was the message, subversives were enemy number one. And if you declared yourself Catholic, whilst not, you put yourself underneath the Catholic authorities to judge your orthodoxy.

The Spanish Inquisition was highly advanced for its time. You had rules of evidence, have representation, to face your accuser, and as a result many people preferred to have their complaints heard by the Inquisition than by the Spanish State. ( they wanted to make it a religious matter )
This at a time when trial by ordeal and combat were an acceptable form of justice system. The various European states dealt out “ Justice “ far harsher than the Spanish Inquisition.

History is far more fascinating when you read it without prejudiced glasses on.

Considering the utter prejudiced glasses your narrative presents, I recognize your inaccurate assertions as entirely biased by church and not by facts

 

[Silverhair]

No, pretending to be Catholic was the problem. Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

We live in a pluralist society today, but in the homogenous western culture of the past, heresy meant war and social upheaval and was something to be greatly avoided.

The Catholic Authorities had no problem with you being Jewish or Moorish, so long as as you weren’t pretending to be Catholic and at the same time holding heterodox beliefs.

They put you in a category as other, and in reality you faced no physical or mortal penalty.

What happened to a few Jewish traders who feigned conversion to get more favourable business with the state, was that they attracted the gaze of the Spanish Inquisition.

Don’t pretend to be Catholic while holding antithetical beliefs, was the message, subversives were enemy number one. And if you declared yourself Catholic, whilst not, you put yourself underneath the Catholic authorities to judge your orthodoxy.

The Spanish Inquisition was highly advanced for its time. You had rules of evidence, have representation, to face your accuser, and as a result many people preferred to have their complaints heard by the Inquisition than by the Spanish State. ( they wanted to make it a religious matter )
This at a time when trial by ordeal and combat were an acceptable form of justice system. The various European states dealt out “ Justice “ far harsher than the Spanish Inquisition.

History is far more fascinating when you read it without prejudiced glasses on.

If we are simply talking about official executions during the Spanish Inquisition, most contemporary experts would place the total number of executions between 3,000 and 10,000, with perhaps an additional 100,000 to 125,000 dying in prison as a result of torture and maltreatment. The Inquisition in neighboring Portugal resulted in even fewer such deaths (cf. Joseph Pérez, The Spanish Inquisition [Profile Books, 2006], 173; R. J. Rummel, Death by Government [Transaction Publishers, 2009], 62).

Whether it was 3000 or 125000 that died as a result of the questioning it does not lessen the fact that this was done by the church. Where do we see this kind of behavior condoned in the bible?

I find it odd that you would compare the actions of the inquisition to justice of that time. These were supposed to be men of God and yet they did not act as men of God.

Please do not say but God did this to pagans in the OT. God knows the heart, in the inquisition we had man trying to act as if they were God.

 

[Cathode]

If we are simply talking about official executions during the Spanish Inquisition, most contemporary experts would place the total number of executions between 3,000 and 10,000, with perhaps an additional 100,000 to 125,000 dying in prison as a result of torture and maltreatment. The Inquisition in neighboring Portugal resulted in even fewer such deaths (cf. Joseph Pérez, The Spanish Inquisition [Profile Books, 2006], 173; R. J. Rummel, Death by Government [Transaction Publishers, 2009], 62).

Whether it was 3000 or 125000 that died as a result of the questioning it does not lessen the fact that this was done by the church. Where do we see this kind of behavior condoned in the bible?

I find it odd that you would compare the actions of the inquisition to justice of that time. These were supposed to be men of God and yet they did not act as men of God.

Please do not say but God did this to pagans in the OT. God knows the heart, in the inquisition we had man trying to act as if they were God.

The Spanish Inquisition was a response to massive death and destruction that Protestants brought to the rest of Europe. Spain was not going to allow it.

In one year in Germany alone, over 130,000 men women and children were murdered in the Protestant revolt, with no trial.

The Inquisition executed 3500 people over 356 years, only after what was then, the most advanced legal trial of the day.
Protestantism 130,000 murders 1 year just in Germany alone
Inquisition 3500 executions 356 years.
Inquisition 113, 000 acquittals
Protestant revolt 0 acquittals, just a sword to the guts.

Luther brought about the revolt with his new heretical doctrines and then betrayed the revolt calling for people, whole towns and villages to be slaughtered like “mad dogs”. No trial for the “ mad dogs “.
There’s the “ man of God “ that founded Protestantism, he didn’t ask for a fair trial for people, just slaughter.

The Spanish State executed heretics, not the Catholic Church. It was against the law in Spain to be a heretic, the heresies of Protestantism brought massive death tolls and the destruction of a great art, and cultural treasures of humanity.

Heresy brought nothing but a host of great evils to homogenous societies, very different from the pluralist societies of today.