The common ground.

[37818]

Most likely this truth will not settle the Arminian Calvinist divide.

In either case, the notion belief precedes regeneration or regeneration precedes belief, hearing the word of God precedes in both views.

Hebrews 4:12, ". . . For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. . . ."

[ John 17:17, Romans 10:17. ]

 

[canadyjd]

Most likely this truth will not settle the Arminian Calvinist divide.

In either case, the notion belief precedes regeneration or regeneration precedes belief, hearing the word of God precedes in both views.

Hebrews 4:12, ". . . For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. . . ."

[ John 17:17, Romans 10:17. ]

I do appreciate your effort to find the common ground. There are, however, some on both sides that believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I do appreciate your effort to find the common ground. There are, however, some on both sides that believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation.

peace to you

I know of one view that seems to think that. Kinda Calvinist, but may not claim to be Calvinist. If I remember correctly, some claiming to be Primitive Baptist, anti-missionary.

What are the two views you have in mind?

 

[canadyjd]

I know of one view that seems to think that. Kinda Calvinist, but may not claim to be Calvinist. If I remember correctly, some claiming to be Primitive Baptist, anti-missionary.

What are the two views you have in mind?

The first is that the gospel is not necessary for salvation. If I remember correctly, the main person who states this is anti-Calvinist and believes God can/does use other means to bring people to salvation without the gospel, or even hearing the name of Christ. They reject predestination or election prior to salvation. It is, I think, a version of “they respond to the light they have” theology.

The second view is clearly hyper Calvinist. This view says God grants salvation to His elect whether or not they ever hear the gospel or the name of Christ, or even recognize God exist.

Both views are contrary to scripture, imo.

peace to you

 

[37818]

The second view is clearly hyper Calvinist. This view says God grants salvation to His elect whether or not they ever hear the gospel or the name of Christ, or even recognize God exist.

Sounds to me like what some Primitive Baptists claim.

 

[37818]

The first is that the gospel is not necessary for salvation. If I remember correctly, the main person who states this is anti-Calvinist and believes God can/does use other means to bring people to salvation without the gospel, or even hearing the name of Christ. They reject predestination or election prior to salvation. It is, I think, a version of “they respond to the light they have” theology.

Does this, as a group, have a name?

 

[DaveXR650]

The second view is clearly hyper Calvinist. This view says God grants salvation to His elect whether or not they ever hear the gospel or the name of Christ, or even recognize God exist.

I had a primitive Baptist tell me that and I did not believe it until I looked up the references he gave and some do believe that. (not all but some). What I see mostly on here is a tendency to balk or become defensive when the need to "come to Christ" or ask God for forgiveness is stressed. Or when it is suggested that people should be told to believe. Or if it is suggested that God has covenanted with us that we are promised that if we come to Christ and repent He will save us. It is not that they don't believe that this happens or is necessary, but that it is what the elect will do, inevitably. So I think there is some common ground with other Calvinists and Baptists.

But some don't. They think the gospel is tainted and becomes false if you say you must believe in order to be saved.

 

[canadyjd]

I had a primitive Baptist tell me that and I did not believe it until I looked up the references he gave and some do believe that. (not all but some)…..

But some don't. They think the gospel is tainted and becomes false if you say you must believe in order to be saved.

It seems to me to be an odd argument that faith is somehow a “work”. I don’t know of anyone that believes their faith in Jesus “merits” salvation.

Interesting info on the primitive Baptist. 37818 also mentioned they have that belief, at least in some fellowships.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I don’t know of anyone that believes their faith in Jesus “merits” salvation.

A number of years ago I came across a person who made the argumed that her believing merited her salvation. She made that argument to counter my comment we did not merit our salvation. That brief discussion ended with her claim.

 

[canadyjd]

A number of years ago I came across a person who made the argumed that her believing merited her salvation. She made that argument to counter my comment we did not merit our salvation. That brief discussion ended with her claim.

It would be rare, imo, to find somebody actually using those terms (faith meriting salvation).

I recall asking someone what was the difference between their believing the gospel and another rejecting the gospel. They told me me “I had sense enough to believe”.

I would consider that response simply not understanding the implications of what they said, rather than thinking they believed they merited their salvation by faith.

I’m sure there are people who do think that, but again, it would probably be rare, especially in Baptist circles.

peace to you

 

[37818]

It would be rare, imo, to find somebody actually using those terms (faith meriting salvation).

Agreed. I was making the argument we do not merit salvation. For which I got that responce. It ended that discussion. This was some 20 years ago. Late 1990's. What stuck in mind was that claim.

 

[Alan Gross]

In either case, the notion belief precedes regeneration or regeneration precedes belief, hearing the word of God precedes in both views.

Hebrews 4:12, ". . . For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. . . ."

[ John 17:17, Romans 10:17. ]

Whom He ELECTED and LOVED WITH AN EVERLASTING LOVE, them He also FOREKNEW IN PREDESTINATION.

In the ALMIGHTY SUPERINTENDENCE of the Holy Spirit, the sinner is brought under the Teaching of the ETERNAL WORD OF GOD, by His EFFECTUAL CALLING.

Whom He did PREDESTINATE, them He also CALLED.

CONVICTION of sin takes place by the Word of God, when the Schoolmaster brings the lost sinner to GUILT UNDER THE LAW.

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

CONVICTION is the first Work of the Holy Spirit on the dead, lost, blind, soul that is unholy, ungodly, and without strength and has "no soundness in it", operating on the CONSCIENCE and begining to QUICKEN THE SOUL TO ETERNAL LIFE, below the CONSCIENCE.

The ELECT sinner is Begun to be CALLED and DRAWN in CONVICTION OF THEIR PERSONAL GUILT OF DESERVING HELL, with their soul placed UNDER GOD'S WORD.

The Fullness of CONVERTION to ETERNAL LIFE, takes place, in the EFFECTUAL CALLING, when the soul is Granted REPENTANCE FROM THEIR PERSONAL SIN, as well as, being Given FAITH & BELIEF to Trust the Gospel, the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That is all in response to The Word, also, and is the REGENERATION of THE NEW BIRTH.

"You must be Born Again".
Being Born from Above takes place at a specific TIME, in the life of the sinner, who is BROUGHT FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

James 1:18, KJV: Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,


The HOLY SPIRIT HAS COME IN as THE SAVED SOUL BECOMES PARTAKER of the ETERNAL DIVINE NATURE, GIVING BELIEF, and SEALS THE SOUL, unto the Day of Redemption, that is now, JUSTIFIED and soon GLORIFIED.

Hebrews 4:12, ". . . For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. . . ."
In CONVICTION.

John 17:17; "Sanctify ( SET THEM APART UNTO ME, THE GODHEAD) them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Romans 10:17. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, ( as EVIDENCE you have been CONVICTED THAT YOUR SINS NAILED JESUS to the CROSS) and shalt believe in thine heart ( as EVIDENCE YOU HAVE BEEN GRANTED REPENTANCE OF YOUR HELLBOUND SIN-GUILTINESS & GIVEN BELIEF IN THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS' Death, Burial, and Resurrection,i.e., ) that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved ( YOU WILL SHOW EVIDENCE OF HAVING BEEN ETERNALLY SAVED).

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? ( Been GIVEN CONVICTION, REPENTANCE, AND FAITH = BELIEF.

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF THE ETERNAL WORD AT A SPECIFIC TE IN THEIR LIFE.

and how shall they hear without a preacher?

TIME TO STEP UP AND PREACH THE GOSPEL, MEN OF GOD.

"

 

[Alan Gross]

The first is that the gospel is not necessary for salvation. If I remember correctly, the main person who states this is anti-Calvinist and believes God can/does use other means to bring people to salvation without the gospel, or even hearing the name of Christ. They reject predestination or election prior to salvation. It is, I think, a version of “they respond to the light they have” theology.

The second view is clearly hyper Calvinist. This view says God grants salvation to His elect whether or not they ever hear the gospel or the name of Christ, or even recognize God exist.

Both views are contrary to scripture, imo.

peace to you

"Both views are contrary to scripture, imo."

Both views are contrary to scripture, imo, as you have stated them.

The True 'Calvonistic' view always uses the Holy Spirit, in TIME, and the INSTRUMENTALITY OF THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD, to CONVICT and GRANT REPENTANCE and FAITH, by the Power of God, the Gospel ( Which is CONVERTION, REGENERATION, JUSTIFICATION, and THE NEW BIRTH.)

FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[37818]

Contrary views on election. Both views cannot be Biblical.
Many, if not all, Calvinists believe God's choosing in Epheians 1:4 to be the election. It is my understanding it occurs at salvation, Matthew 22:14.

 

[canadyjd]

Contrary views on election. Both views cannot be Biblical.
Many, if not all, Calvinists believe God's choosing in Epheians 1:4 to be the election. It is my understanding it occurs at salvation, Matthew 22:14.

If I understand correctly, you view “election” in a general way… that is that God’s election is to those who believe the gospel. Therefore, God’s election “before the foundation of the world” is not for specific people but rather the process by which someone would become elect… when he believes.

I disagree. I believe scripture teaches its election of specific people to salvation.

peace to you

 

[37818]

If I understand correctly, you view “election” in a general way… that is that God’s election is to those who believe the gospel. Therefore, God’s election “before the foundation of the world” is not for specific people but rather the process by which someone would become elect… when he believes.

Kinda. God specifically knows before the foundation of the world who His elect are. But that is not when they are His elect. But are who will be His elect. Hear the difference?

I disagree. I believe scripture teaches its election of specific people to salvation.

LOL. I believe it is God having choosen His saved. But that choosing is not the election. Hear the difference?

 

[George Antonios]

I had a primitive Baptist tell me that and I did not believe it until I looked up the references he gave and some do believe that. (not all but some). What I see mostly on here is a tendency to balk or become defensive when the need to "come to Christ" or ask God for forgiveness is stressed. Or when it is suggested that people should be told to believe. Or if it is suggested that God has covenanted with us that we are promised that if we come to Christ and repent He will save us. It is not that they don't believe that this happens or is necessary, but that it is what the elect will do, inevitably. So I think there is some common ground with other Calvinists and Baptists.

But some don't. They think the gospel is tainted and becomes false if you say you must believe in order to be saved.

Many primitive Baptist believe a Muslim can die as a Muslim (or Hindu or atheist, etc.), and if he was one of the elect, then he will wake up in heaven. I know Calvinist pastors personally who believe that.

 

[37818]

Many primitive Baptist believe a Muslim can die as a Muslim (or Hindu or atheist, etc.), and if he was one of the elect, then he will wake up in heaven.

My issue here, is on what Biblical basis are their names kept in the book of life? Revelation 20:15.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Many primitive Baptist believe a Muslim can die as a Muslim (or Hindu or atheist, etc.), and if he was one of the elect, then he will wake up in heaven. I know Calvinist pastors personally who believe that.

I won't say it doesn't happen. I will say I never ever heard of it, even among some pretty high Calvinists.

 

[George Antonios]

My issue here, is on what Biblical basis are their names kept in the book of life? Revelation 20:15.

On the basis of the Calvinist/Gnostic notion of unilateral, divine, pre-creation, criterion-less, pre-selection unto salvation.