The common ground.

[DaveXR650]

I hope you realize that you never actually answered the question.
Is faith the cause of the effect?
If it's the cause, then it is a work.
If faith is the effect, then God does the work.

What I see is a whole bunch of people dancing around the question rather than he honest.

I think I did answer the question. If those definitions of faith that I gave are correct. (And they all came from heavy hitting Calvinist theologians) then you tell me how in the world it can be a work. If the definitions fall short, explain how.

Then I went through a careful explanation of how there is a difference between faith being the MERIT of salvation and something that must occur or there is no salvation. Once again, that agrees with the explanation of some of the top Calvinist theologians. I don't know how else to explain it. Post 39 explains very well the classic Calvinist order of things. But even if you don't agree with that order - and a lot of Baptists don't - that still doesn't turn faith into a work.

 

[AustinC]

I think I did answer the question. If those definitions of faith that I gave are correct. (And they all came from heavy hitting Calvinist theologians) then you tell me how in the world it can be a work. If the definitions fall short, explain how.

Then I went through a careful explanation of how there is a difference between faith being the MERIT of salvation and something that must occur or there is no salvation. Once again, that agrees with the explanation of some of the top Calvinist theologians. I don't know how else to explain it. Post 39 explains very well the classic Calvinist order of things. But even if you don't agree with that order - and a lot of Baptists don't - that still doesn't turn faith into a work.

Again, you are dancing around the question.

Is faith the cause or the effect?

 

[AustinC]

I qualified my statement with



Did you intentionally ignore that?



Again I say



Challenge our claims with appeals to fact of church history. Not insults.



God does not respond positively to sycophancy.

Job 13:8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

So stop with your syncophancy.

 

[DaveXR650]

Is faith the cause or the effect?

The cause of your salvation is the atonement provided by Christ. As a rational creature God has determined that the benefits of this atonement are appropriated by you having faith. I believe that the Holy Spirit first acts on a person with conviction, enlightening, and application of an understanding of the word in order to give a person the ability to understand and an inclination to believe. What I do not know for sure is whether the person is actually born again before they believe or if they are actually regenerated before having faith. What I do know is that there is no justification without faith. I think we get into the weeds if we go beyond that.

The other thing I want to make clear is that even if someone believes that they have the ability and the free will to believe on their own if they understand that faith is taking Christ at his word and closing with him or throwing themselves on his mercy - then they still have not made faith into a work. I personally don't think that's the way it happens but it is still not a work and they are still a Christian.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How rich.
I'm certain a man such as yourself is read up on a little history.
Pelagius is the root of Calvinism.
Augustine rightly claimed that salvation was by faith without works.
It was Pelagius, dear brother, who replied that 'faith is a work' arguing that Augustine thus contradicted himself.
Augustine, being of dim scriptural understanding of salvation (I've read hundreds of pages of his works) and falling for Pelagius' confounding of the works of the law with human volition (a confounding the Calvinist brethren have inherited from Pelagius) found himself bested by the argument (as many non-Calvinists still are when first faced with that sleight-of-hand confounding).
He was therefore forced to draw from the well of his former deterministic Manichaeism (all gnostic religions are deterministic, incidentally) and came up with the "actually it's God that makes us believe and so salvific faith is therefore not a work of man" counter-argument.
Then he mined the scriptures for proof-texts whose tenor resonated with his gnostic philosophy now fitted in Christian garb.

Calvinism therefore, you see, was unwittingly inseminated in Augustine by Pelagius and Manichaeism, and then unwittingly injected into Christian soteriology by Augustine.
That is why there are no Christian "Calvinist" authors before the 5th-century Augustine of Hippo.
No one else understood the "Calvinist" texts the way he did before him.

But who's listening...

The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism by Ken Wilson

Yeah, I've heard all this rubbish before. The doctrines of grace do not stand on Augustine but on the Scriptures. But of course, it's easier to play the man than the ball.
We can swap insults like this all day long.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I won't say it doesn't happen. I will say I never ever heard of it, even among some pretty high Calvinists.

I’m a PB and I never observed that so where did you get this bit of information? Please enlighten me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I’m a PB and I never observed that so where did you get this bit of information? Please enlighten me.

Are you asking me or @George Antonios ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I’m a PB and I never observed that so where did you get this bit of information? Please enlighten me.

Sorry Steve, it’s too early for me. I should have addressed it to George

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For the record
Primitive Baptists believe in a limited or particular atonement, meaning that Christ died for the sins of His elect only and not for the sins of every man.(Isaiah 53:10; John 10:11,14-15; Romans 9:11-24; Romans 8:29-33; Ephesians 1:4-5; John 17:6-9; I Peter 1:2; I Thessalonians 1:4). If Christ died for every person who has ever lived, all would be saved and this we know is not true for He said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:37-39). It has been well said that one of three things must be true: 1. Christ died for all the sins of all men, 2. Christ died for some of the sins of all men, or 3. Christ died for all of the sins of some men. If Christ died for all the sins of all men, everyone would be saved; this Bible does not teach. If Christ died for some of the sins of all men, no man is saved for one sin that has not been remitted would be enough to keep any person out of heaven. Therefore, Christ did die for all the sins of some men - the elect; this Bible teaches. The Primitive Baptists believe.

 

[AVL1984]

Yeah, I've heard all this rubbish before. The doctrines of grace do not stand on Augustine but on the Scriptures. But of course, it's easier to play the man than the ball.
We can swap insults like this all day long.

It's really sad that so much time is wasted on such a fruitless topic.

 

[AustinC]

The cause of your salvation is the atonement provided by Christ. As a rational creature God has determined that the benefits of this atonement are appropriated by you having faith. I believe that the Holy Spirit first acts on a person with conviction, enlightening, and application of an understanding of the word in order to give a person the ability to understand and an inclination to believe. What I do not know for sure is whether the person is actually born again before they believe or if they are actually regenerated before having faith. What I do know is that there is no justification without faith. I think we get into the weeds if we go beyond that.

The other thing I want to make clear is that even if someone believes that they have the ability and the free will to believe on their own if they understand that faith is taking Christ at his word and closing with him or throwing themselves on his mercy - then they still have not made faith into a work. I personally don't think that's the way it happens but it is still not a work and they are still a Christian.

You're still dancing, Dave.
You are claiming atonement as salvation.
Did Jesus death and sacrifice cause you to believe? If so, why share the gospel?
Either we take God at his word, or we create a logical theory.
God tells us we were dead in our trespasses and sins.
God tells us that even while we were dead, God chose to make us alive, by grace (unmerited favor).
God tells us that we are seated with Christ Jesus in the heavenlies.
God tells us that this gracious salvation also brought with it the gift of faith to believe so that our salvation works itself out through the faith God gives us in order that we might do the works God has ordained for us to do.
~ Ephesians 2:1-10

God is very clear. No need to dance.

 

[DaveXR650]

Austin. What happens is you don't get an answer you want so you start making charges that I'm "dancing". I have made points. Either refute them or move on. Maybe you simply can't understand what I'm saying. Faith, on the part of the person, is absolutely essential for justification and ultimately salvation. Do you understand this? YOU have to have faith BEFORE you are justified. In that sense faith is a CONDITION of salvation.

If you live life for a period of time after becoming a Christian there are other "conditions" required. Faith must work by love, you must love God. You must pursue holiness. You must persevere. You should read on: Ephesians has a chapter 4 also.

Now, because you have probably become a Calvinist by listening to internet TULIP debaters let me explain something. You try to get someone to say faith comes before regeneration because you have been taught that that clinches the debate for you. It may have 20 years ago, if you are trying to be a bonified member of R.C. Sproul's club. It doesn't work any more. A lot of people have read the same scriptures and came to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit begins working on someone, they come to faith and are born again. The timing and the order are not as well defined in scripture as they were led to believe. You need to accept that also. Your opinion is valid but it is not the gospel. There actually is a lot of common ground.

 

[AustinC]

Austin. What happens is you don't get an answer you want so you start making charges that I'm "dancing". I have made points. Either refute them or move on. Maybe you simply can't understand what I'm saying. Faith, on the part of the person, is absolutely essential for justification and ultimately salvation. Do you understand this? YOU have to have faith BEFORE you are justified. In that sense faith is a CONDITION of salvation.

If you live life for a period of time after becoming a Christian there are other "conditions" required. Faith must work by love, you must love God. You must pursue holiness. You must persevere. You should read on: Ephesians has a chapter 4 also.

Now, because you have probably become a Calvinist by listening to internet TULIP debaters let me explain something. You try to get someone to say faith comes before regeneration because you have been taught that that clinches the debate for you. It may have 20 years ago, if you are trying to be a bonified member of R.C. Sproul's club. It doesn't work any more. A lot of people have read the same scriptures and came to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit begins working on someone, they come to faith and are born again. The timing and the order are not as well defined in scripture as they were led to believe. You need to accept that also. Your opinion is valid but it is not the gospel. There actually is a lot of common ground.

No, you didn't answer the question. You expanded my question to fit what you wanted to talk about and then expounded on your atonement theory. My question was straightforward. I understand that you do not want to answer the question. What your reason is for avoidance is really only known to you.

Justification is after salvation.
Saved by grace alone.
Justified by faith alone.
Faith is given after salvation. Therefore justification comes after salvation.

I understand that a lot of people create various scenarios where man cooperates with God and thus man and God are co-saviors. I am pointing to the text and stating that the text is clear and not ambiguous, regardless of how muddled people attempt to make it.
But, here you are, working hard to muddle up the clarity. I can only wonder why you do this.

 

[DaveXR650]

But, here you are, working hard to muddle up the clarity. I can only wonder why you do this.

Maybe because I actually read the Westminster Confession of Faith. Chapter 14. "Of Saving Faith" Point 1 starts out " The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls..." Does that sound like faith is given after salvation?

"enabled to believe to the saving of their souls" Sorry, faith IS a condition. Justification after salvation is a meaningless statement. "Faith is given after salvation" goes against the WCF as I showed you above. In the spirit of this thread which was supposed to be about common ground I have tried to show that there are different ways of looking at the ways the Holy Spirit brings people to faith.

What you should do is go back and read some of these documents, and also read some of the sermons Calvinists preached. You will find a lot of common ground. If you have time, I would recommend a sermon by Martyn Lloyd-Jones, #5758 called "Hyper-Calvinism; Calvinism and Arminianism". They have all his sermons on a website.

I know some of the free willers dish it out just as much but in this case you are making ill thought out statements.

 

[37818]

I don't think Rev.20:15 is a problem for them.
Rev.3:5 is more of a problem (because of the warning of the possibility of blotting out a name) for the Gnostic Calvinist mindset but I suppose the primitives would answer Rev.3:5 the way any Calvinist would.

How? Revelation 3:5 promise only explicitly applies to an overcomer. And the only place an overcomer is defined is 1 John 5:4-5, as being born from God and believes in the Son of God. Otherwise is pure conjecture.

 

[George Antonios]

Yeah, I've heard all this rubbish before. The doctrines of grace do not stand on Augustine but on the Scriptures. But of course, it's easier to play the man than the ball.
We can swap insults like this all day long.

A) You first connected me to Pelagius
B) I replied with sourced history how Pelagius' counter-argument to Augustine is the source of Calvinism.

And now, suddenly, just as @AustinC, you simply say "rubbish", without engaging the claims by historical facts, and move on.

I'll take it.

 

[George Antonios]

How? Revelation 3:5 promise only explicitly applies to an overcomer. And the only place an overcomer is defined is 1 John 5:4-5, as being born from God and believes in the Son of God. Otherwise is pure conjecture.

1John 5:4-5 doesn't solve the issue. I honestly wish it did.
Revelation 2-3 is written to people who are already believers.
So if you apply 1John 5:4-5, they are already overcomers.
But then exhorting believers to overcome is moot, since they have already overcome.

Besides, the overcoming is defined in the same passage as enduring 10 days of suffering without denying Christ.

 

[37818]

Besides, the overcoming is defined in the same passage as enduring 10 days of suffering without denying Christ.

Says no such thing in regards to Revelation 2:11 itself.

 

[George Antonios]

Says no such thing in regards to Revelation 2:11 itself.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

That's the "overcoming" of v.11, defined.

 

[37818]

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

That's the "overcoming" of v.11, defined.

No it does not. Verse 11 is to the churches. Verse 10 is to the messager of the Smyrna church and to his church.