Biblical Assertion

[Van]

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

One of the verses cited to support the assertion is Deuteronomy 30:19 which says God sets before us the choice of life or death. This is contrary to the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, which says we will only choose death.

Now this choice was set before us after the Fall, and therefore our being predisposed to sin did not preclude the possibility of choosing life. Therefore the actual biblical doctrine should be “Limited Spiritual Ability” of the unregenerate lost.

Humankind has three enemies, Satan, the World –with its corrupt values, and our fleshly desires. All three at one time or another set before us choices where we usually choose sin. But, according to James 1:14 we are tempted, not compelled, and therefore have some ability to choose not to sin. But even if we do choose according to God’s will, this does not result in “good works” for all our works of righteousness prior to salvation are as filthy rags. Nothing we do earns our salvation.

 

[KenH]

works of righteousness prior to salvation are as filthy rags

And also after the elect have been regenerated by God and granted the gifts of faith and repentance. We are never free from the effects of the fall of Adam while in these corrupt human bodies, see Romans 7:13-25.

 

[Van]

And also after the elect have been regenerated by God and granted the gifts of faith and repentance. We are never free from the effects of the fall of Adam while in these corrupt human bodies, see Romans 7:13-25.

Did anyone say we were "free from the effects (or affects) of the fall? Nope.
Since individuals are chosen through faith, their faith was utilized in their election for salvation. Not the other way around!

 

[KenH]

Did anyone say we were "free from the effects (or affects) of the fall? Nope.
Since individuals are chosen through faith, their faith was utilized in their election for salvation. Not the other way around!

God chose His elect before the world began(Ephesians 1:4). Faith is the result of regeneration, not the cause. To claim that one's faith is the cause of regeneration is a doctrine born out of human pride and self-righteousness.

 

[kyredneck]

To claim that one's faith is the cause of regeneration is a doctrine born out of human pride and self-righteousness.

AGREE!

 

[DaveXR650]

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

The key there is "necessity of nature". Our tendency to sin is not a necessity of nature like our need to breath or eat food. But it is a real tendency based on what we want to do and choose to do that is 100% proven true for every man who ever lived except Jesus. Each time we sin we could indeed have chosen not to - except we didn't want to.

But the question is where do you want to take this. If you take it far enough you could reduce the gospel to telling people to stop sinning and start obeying God's laws. But we know that that doesn't seem to work. (Not to mention the problem of paying for what was already done).

 

[Alan Gross]

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

One of the verses cited to support the assertion is Deuteronomy 30:19 which says God sets before us the choice of life or death. This is contrary to the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, which says we will only choose death.

Now this choice was set before us after the Fall, and therefore our being predisposed to sin did not preclude the possibility of choosing life. Therefore the actual biblical doctrine should be “Limited Spiritual Ability” of the unregenerate lost.

Humankind has three enemies, Satan, the World –with its corrupt values, and our fleshly desires. All three at one time or another set before us choices where we usually choose sin. But, according to James 1:14 we are tempted, not compelled, and therefore have some ability to choose not to sin. But even if we do choose according to God’s will, this does not result in “good works” for all our works of righteousness prior to salvation are as filthy rags. Nothing we do earns our salvation.

God sets before us the choice of life or death.

life or death, not "salvation"

 

[KenH]

. If you take it far enough you could reduce the gospel to telling people to stop sinning and start obeying God's laws. But we know that that doesn't seem to work.

It is not that it doesn't "seem" to work. It doesn't work. Period. Never has. Never could. Never will. "if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" - Galatians 3:21

 

[DaveXR650]

It is not that it doesn't "seem" to work. It doesn't work. Period. Never has. Never could. Never will. "if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" - Galatians 3:21

That's true but it is perfectly legit to suggest things that are observed in the human condition. Quoting scripture is fine, and it is the main basis of argument. But Van is quoting scripture too. Jonathan Edwards said he believed that the total depravity of man was something we can observe in ourselves and others. So I thought it would be useful to appeal to reason. But it probably won't be.

 

[Dave G]

"God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

I'm sorry, sir, I cannot seem to find this ( or even its closest summary ) anywhere in the Scriptures.
What I do find is very condemning, and contrary to the above statement...especially the bolded part.

One of the verses cited to support the assertion is Deuteronomy 30:19 which says God sets before us the choice of life or death.

I think if you look closer, you'll find that this is spoken to the nation of Israel by Moses, not to all men indiscriminately;
In other words, God set before them, under the Law, the choice of life or death.
They were given, under the terms of the covenant of law, the choice to obey God, or not.

They were also informed of the consequences of their obedience and disobedience to it.

This is contrary to the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, which says we will only choose death.

Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and John 3:19-20, for example, tell me that mankind couldn't care less about God or His commandments.
According to God's word, we love sin and hate Him, as a race.

In fact, He tells His own chosen physical nation of Israel:

" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13"23 ).

Nothing we do earns our salvation.

Amen.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm sorry, sir, I cannot seem to find this ( or even its closest summary ) anywhere in the Scriptures.

It is in fact a quotation from the 1689 Baptist Confession (9:1). The Scripture proofs attached are Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19. I think you need to read the rest of Chapter 9 to understand better what the writers of the 1689 Confession (and the WCF, I think) mean.

 

[Van]

God chose His elect before the world began(Ephesians 1:4). Faith is the result of regeneration, not the cause. To claim that one's faith is the cause of regeneration is a doctrine born out of human pride and self-righteousness.

God chose us in Him, meaning God chose those to be redeemed corporately, before the world began.
To be saved by grace through faith, means our faith was utilized for our salvation.
No one claimed our faith "is the cause of "election, salvation, regeneration!" But is our worthless faith is credited by God as righteous faith, then God's action is indeed the cause of our "election, salvation, regeneration."
The fictional claims of doctrine adopted by some such as KenH, was born out of human pride and self-righteousness.

 

[Van]

The key there is "necessity of nature". Our tendency to sin is not a necessity of nature like our need to breath or eat food. But it is a real tendency based on what we want to do and choose to do that is 100% proven true for every man who ever lived except Jesus. Each time we sin we could indeed have chosen not to - except we didn't want to.

But the question is where do you want to take this. If you take it far enough you could reduce the gospel to telling people to stop sinning and start obeying God's laws. But we know that that doesn't seem to work. (Not to mention the problem of paying for what was already done).

Did anyone say we could save ourselves by stopping our sinning? Nope, so why suggest anyone wants to take it that far. Scripture tells us God sets before us the CHOICE of life or death, not the ?choice? of death or death. To be a choice, we must at lease some of us, some of the time be able to choose life!! Otherwise, we are just saying scripture does not mean what it says.

 

[Van]

life or death, not "salvation"

Life is our salvation from death.

 

[KenH]

But is our worthless faith is credited by God as righteous faith, then God's action is indeed the cause of our "election, salvation, regeneration."

I am totally worthless. There is not a shred of anything in me or done by me that God can credit as righteousness - not my faith, not my thoughts, not my actions, NOTHING! ALL of my righteousness is in CHRIST and IN HIM ALONE.

Van, if you want to stand before God and point to your worthless faith, go ahead. I will point to the righteousness of Christ alone and His faithfulness.

 

[Van]

I'm sorry, sir, I cannot seem to find this ( or even its closest summary ) anywhere in the Scriptures.
What I do find is very condemning, and contrary to the above statement...especially the bolded part.

I think if you look closer, you'll find that this is spoken to the nation of Israel by Moses, not to all men indiscriminately;
In other words, God set before them, under the Law, the choice of life or death.
They were given, under the terms of the covenant of law, the choice to obey God, or not.

They were also informed of the consequences of their obedience and disobedience to it.

Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and John 3:19-20, for example, tell me that mankind couldn't care less about God or His commandments.
According to God's word, we love sin and hate Him, as a race.

In fact, He tells His own chosen physical nation of Israel:

" Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." ( Jeremiah 13"23 ).

Amen.

Did anyone claim the assertion was a quote from scripture? So why suggest a fiction?
God set before people, those to be saved and those never to be saved, the choice of life or death. Thus people, indiscriminately, are able to make that choice.
The gospel makes clear the consequences of our choice to fully trust in God and Christ, or not.
The claim that your understanding is self selected scriptures reflects those verses where the lost sought God simply shows you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.
It is God who changes us from a created sinner to a new creation, created for good works.

 

[Van]

I am totally worthless. There is not a shred of anything in me or done by me that God can credit as righteousness - not my faith, not my thoughts, not my actions, NOTHING! ALL of my righteousness is in CHRIST and IN HIM ALONE.

Van, if you want to stand before God and point to your worthless faith, go ahead. I will point to the righteousness of Christ alone and His faithfulness.

Folks, here is the straight-up denial of Romans 4:23-25. Nuff said.

 

[KenH]

Folks, here is the straight-up denial of Romans 4:23-25. Nuff said.

I did no such thing as all. Van, you are just bound and determined to take credit for your salvation - that it your faith that your will brought forth that made the difference between being a lost sinner and a saved sinner.

But what saith the Scriptures?

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. - Romans 9:15-16

 

[Van]

I am totally worthless. There is not a shred of anything in me or done by me that God can credit as righteousness - not my faith, not my thoughts, not my actions, NOTHING! ALL of my righteousness is in CHRIST and IN HIM ALONE.

Van, if you want to stand before God and point to your worthless faith, go ahead. I will point to the righteousness of Christ alone and His faithfulness.

Yet another post misrepresenting the biblical gospel. Does crediting my faith as righteous faith make me righteous in the eyes of God? Of course not. How did I become righteous, perfect, blameless and holy, by the washing of regeneration with the precious blood of the Lamb!!!!!!

 

[Van]

I did no such thing as all. Van, you are just bound and determined to take credit for your salvation - that it your faith that your will brought forth that made the difference between being a lost sinner and a saved sinner.

But what saith the Scriptures?

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. - Romans 9:15-16

I say "A" (God saves) and this poster says I said "B" (I saved myself). Nothing I can do when they are allowed to falsify both scripture and commentary.