A fire in Hades

[Van]

Sheol is offten translated "grave" in the KJV.

Yes another word with at least two meanings, thus if the context indicates either the physical grave, or the spiritual location where their spirits were consigned after physical death, should be made clear.

 

[37818]

Yes another word with at least two meanings, thus if the context indicates either the physical grave, or the spiritual location where their spirits were consigned after physical death, should be made clear.

Does Sheol really have two meanings. I think it is a wrong view. Song of Solomon 8:6 being a legitimate cross reference from Deuteronomy 32:22.
". . . shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." ". . . as hell; The flashes thereof are flashes of fire, of Jehovah. . . ."

 

[Van]

Does Sheol really have two meanings. I think it is a wrong view. Song of Solomon 8:6 being a legitimate cross reference from Deuteronomy 32:22.
". . . shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." ". . . as hell; The flashes thereof are flashes of fire, of Jehovah. . . ."

I do not reject the lexicons which say Sheol is used to refer to a physical grave, and the spiritual realm of the dead. Just because one verse uses the verse for the spiritual realm does not mean another verse does not refer to a physical grave. The KJV translates the Hebrew sheol about 29 times as "grave" and about 31 times as "hell."

 

[Van]

The NASB translates the Hebrew as Sheol in all the verses where the Hebrew word appears, but footnotes it with "i.e. the netherworld" about 34 times. In the remaining verses Sheol is not footnoted. In Deuteronomy 32:22 Sheol is footnoted indicating the reference is to the neitherworld, but in Song of Solomon 8:6 Sheol is not footnoted by the NASB.

 

[37818]

I do not reject the lexicons which say Sheol is used to refer to a physical grave, . . .

I reject that as the meaning in the word of God. Do you have one Biblical reference where it can be nothing but a physician grave?

 

[Van]

I reject that as the meaning in the word of God. Do you have one Biblical reference where it can be nothing but a physician grave?

Since both the NET and KJV translate Sheol as grave about 30 times, feel free to study one or more of them.

Let us consider Genesis 37:35, 42:38, and 44:29. We find the phrase "to the grave (Sheol in Hebrew). Here the contextual meaning refers to the end of our physical life, i.e. carry by gray hair to the grave. Since the idea is the end, contextually continued existence in the netherworld (Hades or Gehenna) is not in view. In the NASB none of the three are footnoted, and in the NET all three read "to the grave."

 

[37818]

Since both the NET and KJV translate Sheol as grave about 30 times, feel free to study one or more of them.

There are really none in other words. I asked for one reference which can only refer to a physical grave. I contend there is no such reference. We only need one such Biblical reference to show that sheol has to mean only a physical grave.

 

[Van]

There are really none in other words. I asked for one reference which can only refer to a physical grave. I contend there is no such reference. We only need one such Biblical reference to that sheol has to also mean a physical grave.

You defined your criteria, which you then claim supports your view. All three verses refer to the grave and not to Hades. Full Stop
When you say "can only" you can subjectively say it could refer Hades or Gehenna, but your view is not shared by the many scholars translating those verses in the NASB and NET. How many translations read grave and not Sheol? More than a dozen!

Genesis 37:35 conveys the idea he will go to the grave grieving for his son. Thus he cannot be consoled.

 

[37818]

Luke 16:27-29 , ". . . Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ."

There are only three references. Of cross references which only two mention fire in that place.
Moses Deuteronomy 32:22.
Prophets, Solomon, Song of Solomon 8:6.
David, not mentioning the fire it self, Psalms 86:13.

Those three references stand against most, if not all scholarships on the words Jesus cited Abraham to have said regarding the fire in Hades, Sheol, ". . . They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

 

[37818]

All three verses refer to the grave and not to Hades.

No. Prove those three references cannot mean the nether world.

 

[Van]

No.

The idea of Genesis 37:35 conveys the idea he will go to the grave grieving for his son. Thus he cannot be consoled.

The idea is not as you contend, he will go to the neither world and be with his son!!!! That is the exact opposite of the actual meaning.

 

[37818]

The idea of Genesis 37:35 conveys the idea he will go to the nether world grieving for his son. Thus he cannot be consoled.

The idea is not as you contend, he will go to the neither world and be with his son!!!! That is the exact opposite of the actual meaning.

 

[37818]

Prove those three references cannot mean the nether world.

Waiting.

 

[37818]

Those three references stand against most, if not all scholarships on the words Jesus cited Abraham to have said regarding the fire in Hades, Sheol, ". . . They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

Moses Deuteronomy 32:22.
Prophets, Solomon, Song of Solomon 8:6.
David, not mentioning the fire it self, Psalms 86:13.

 

[Van]

Does 37818 really believe he is the arbitrator of sound doctrine? I provided citations from several well respected translations that read grave or do not footnote netherworld. Case closed. Not to mention the Lexicons.

Do we accept what we believe is the most probable meaning, or claim any meaning is possible and should be accepted if not precluded? You decide...

 

[37818]

Does 37818 really believe he is the arbitrator of sound doctrine?

No. But I am going to believe what I find is true. I cannot be the only one.
Lexicons can be wrong. Biblical interpretations can be wrong.

Luke 16:27-29 , ". . . Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. . . ."

There are only three references. Of cross references which only two mention fire in that place.
Moses Deuteronomy 32:22.
Prophets, Solomon, Song of Solomon 8:6.
David, not mentioning the fire it self, Psalms 86:13.

@Van do you know better cross references? Or any other sources for three the references I gave?

 

[Van]

No. But I am going to believe what I find is true. I cannot be the only one.
Lexicons can be wrong. Biblical interpretations can be wrong.

@Van do you know better cross references? Or any other sources for three the references I gave?

I mentioned that Sheol is translated as "grave" about 29 times in the KJV and about 17 times in the NET. Grave is used frequently in the NLT(46), NIV (26), and NKJV (24).

Here again are the biblical facts:
1: Sheol refers to either the physical grave, where the physical body goes after physical death, or to Hades, where the human spirits of the dead (unless they obtained approval through faith), under the Old Covenant go upon physical death.
2. Hades is a temporary holding cell for the lost, but will be emptied when all the lost are taken before the Great White Throne for judgment.
3. Hades will then be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
4. Under the New Covenant, those belonging to Christ are taken to heaven to be with our Lord upon our physical death, but the lost still go to Hades to await judgment.
5. While confined to Hades, the lost suffer torment as in flames.
6. Under the Old Covenant, the human spirits of the dead who had obtained approval by faith were taken to Abraham's bosom.

 

[37818]

I mentioned that Sheol is translated as "grave" about 29 times in the KJV and about 17 times in the NET. Grave is used frequently in the NLT(46), NIV (26), and NKJV (24).

Here again are the biblical facts:
1: Sheol refers to either the physical grave, where the physical body goes after physical death, or to Hades, where the human spirits of the dead (unless they obtained approval through faith), under the Old Covenant go upon physical death.
2. Hades is a temporary holding cell for the lost, but will be emptied when all the lost are taken before the Great White Throne for judgment.
3. Hades will then be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
4. Under the New Covenant, those belonging to Christ are taken to heaven to be with our Lord upon our physical death, but the lost still go to Hades to await judgment.
5. While confined to Hades, the lost suffer torment as in flames.
6. Under the Old Covenant, the human spirits of the dead who had obtained approval by faith were taken to Abraham's bosom.

There is still no reference where Sheol can solely mean a physical grave and in no way meaning the nether world as used any where in the written word of God. There is no such reference in the Bible.

 

[Van]

There is still no reference where Sheol can solely mean a physical grave and in no way meaning the nether world as used any where in the written word of God. There is no such reference in the Bible.

And there is no support anywhere in scripture for your view.
Here again are the biblical facts:
1: Sheol refers to either the physical grave, where the physical body goes after physical death, or to Hades, where the human spirits of the dead (unless they obtained approval through faith), under the Old Covenant go upon physical death.
2. Hades is a temporary holding cell for the lost, but will be emptied when all the lost are taken before the Great White Throne for judgment.
3. Hades will then be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
4. Under the New Covenant, those belonging to Christ are taken to heaven to be with our Lord upon our physical death, but the lost still go to Hades to await judgment.
5. While confined to Hades, the lost suffer torment as in flames.
6. Under the Old Covenant, the human spirits of the dead who had obtained approval by faith were taken to Abraham's bosom.

 

[37818]

And there is no support anywhere in scripture for your view.

Based on what? Where is the proof that any where in the written word of God is Sheol/Hades ever used solely for any physical grave where it in no way refers to the nether world.