1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Men who Taught The BIBLE DOCTRINES of GRACE in the First Four Centuries, A.D.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Feb 3, 2023.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/gill/The_Cause_of_God_and_Truth_-_John_Gill.pdf

    A Vindication of the Doctrines of Grace on Account of Church History.

    These are Men who Taught The BIBLE DOCTRINES of GRACE,
    in the First Four Centuries, A.D.,

    from Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69., to Hieronymus, A.D.390.

    This Fourth Part, of The Cause of God and Truth, was published in 1738,
    in which the sense of the ancient writers of the Christian Church,
    before the times of Austin, is given;

    the importance and consequence of which is shown,
    and that the Arminians have very little reason to triumph on that account.

    PLEASE Click the link, above, to view: (123 accounts/ articles)

    INDEX to Part 4, begins on pg 7
    INDEX to Chapter 1 Predestination / Reprobation, begins on pg 7
    INDEX to Chapter 2 Redemption, begins on pg 8
    INDEX to
    Chapter 3 Original Sin, begins on pg 9
    INDEX to
    Chapter 4 Efficacious Grace, begins on pg 10
    INDEX to Chapter 5 Perseverance, begins on pg 10


    Introduction to Part 4 pg 563

    Since those doctrines which are commonly called, Calvinistical
    are charged with novelty and are represented as running directly contrary
    to the whole stream of antiquity, and the sentiments of the ancient fathers,
    and as entirely unknown to the Christian church before the time of Austin;

    when, on the other hand, the doctrines of the universal scheme
    are said to be confirmed by the concurrent suffrage of all antiquity,
    and the express and frequent declarations of the ancient fathers;

    1 it is necessary that this affair should be inquired into and examined,
    whether it is a matter of fact or no.

    And this will be the subject of this Fourth Part.

    EXAMPLE: Predestination / Reprobation pg 569

    Section 1— pg 571 Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.


    Clement of Rome, lived in the times of the apostles, and is,
    by Clement of Alexandria, 7 called an apostle.

    He is thought by some 8 to be the same Clement the apostle Paul speaks of,
    in Philippians 4:3, as one of his fellow-laborers.

    He wrote an epistle in the name of the church at Rome to the church at Corinth,
    about 9 the year 69, which is the earliest piece of antiquity
    next to the writings of the apostles extant, being written when some of them were living,
    even before the apostle John wrote his Epistles, and the book of the Revelation,
    and while the temple at Jerusalem was yet standing.

    In this epistle are several things relating to The Doctrine of Election,
    and which greatly serve to confirm it.

    For, 1. Agreeable to the apostolic doctrine, that God worketh all things
    after the council of his own will (Eph. 1:11), that his purposes shall stand,
    and that whatsoever he has determined shall come to pass,
    Clement affirms, that 10 "when he wills, and as he wills, he does all things;"
    kai ouden mh tarelqh twn dedogmatwmenwn upV autou,
    and that "none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away,"
    or be unaccomplished: which shows his sense of the dependency of all things
    upon the will of God, and of the immutability of his decrees in general.

    2. He not only frequently makes mention of persons
    under the character of the elect of God, but also intimates,
    that there is a certain, special, and peculiar number of them fixed by him.

    Speaking of the schism and sedition in the church at Corinth, he represents it
    11 as what was "very unbecoming, and should be far from toij eklektoij tou Qeou,
    the elect of God."

    And elsewhere 12 having cited Psalm 18:26, he says,
    "Let us therefore join ourselves to the innocent and righteous, for
    eisin outoi eklektoi tou Qeou, they are the elect of God;"
    that is, they appear to be so, these are characters descriptive of them.

    And in another place, 13 enlarging in commendation of the grace of love,
    he says, "Love knows no schism, is not seditious; love does all things in harmony;
    pantej oi eklektoi tou Qeou, all the elect of God are made perfect in love:"
    which agrees with what the apostle says of them,
    that they are chosen to be holy and without blame before him in love (Eph. 1:4).

    Moreover, Clement observes, 14 to the praise of the members of the church of Corinth,
    to whom he writes, that formerly their "contention was night and day for the whole brotherhood, that ton ariqmon twn eklektwn autou, the number of his elect might be saved, with mercy and a good conscience."

    And elsewhere 15 he says, that "God chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him,
    eij laon periousion, for a peculiar people."

    3. Whereas the apostle Paul, writing to the Ephesians, says;
    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings, in heavenly places, in Christ;
    according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation oaf the world (Eph. 1:3, 4),
    we conclude from hence, that from all eternity
    there was a preparation of spiritual blessings made;
    and agreeably, Clement, our apostolical writer, has these words;
    "Let us therefore consider, 16 brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world proetoimasaj taj euergesiaj autou prin hmaj gennhqhnai, having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born."

    4. This very ancient writer plainly intimates,
    that the special and spiritual blessings of grace are peculiar to the elect of God;

    and that it is the stable and unalterable will of God,
    that his chosen ones should partake of them:
    particularly repentance, and remission of sins:
    for having mentioned those words in Psalm 32:1, 2,

    Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered;
    Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity,
    and in whose spirit there is no guile; he observes,
    17 that this blessedness comes upon, or belongs unto, touj eklelegmenouj upo tou Qeou, those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord."

    And in another place, 18 having taken notice of some general instances,
    declarations, and exhortations, encouraging men to repentance,
    suggests, that God’s design herein, was to bring to repentance
    such as were interested in his love; his words are these;
    "Therefore He (that is, God), being desirous that pantaj touj agaphtaj autou,
    all his beloved ones should partake of repentance, confirmed it by his almighty will."
    That is, God, not willing, as the apostle Peter says,
    that any of his beloved ones should perish,
    but that all of them should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9),
    fixed it by an unchangeable decree, that they should come to repentance;
    and therefore makes use of the above declarations and exhortations
    as means to bring them to it.

    5. As the Scriptures always ascribe the act of Election to God, and not men,
    and represent it as made in Christ, and by or through Him (Eph.1:4, 5);

    that he was first chosen as a head, and the elect as members in him;

    so Clement speaks 19 of God as he oeklexamenoj ton Kurion Iesoun Criston kai hmaj di auton, who hath chosen the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him;"
    and of the elect as chosen upw tou Qeou dia Iesou Cristou tou Kuriou hmwn,
    of God through Jesus Christ our Lord; and exhorts men 20
    to come to God in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto him,
    loving our mild and merciful Father, oj hmaj ekloghj meroj epoihsen eautw,
    "who hath made us a part of the Election for himself."

    7. Stromat. 50:4, p. 516. 8. Euseb. Eccl. Hist. 50:3, c. 15; Hieron. Catalog. Script. Eccl. s. 25. 9. Fabricii Bibl. Graec. 50:4, c. 5, p. 175. 10. Epist. ad Corinth. 1:p. 64. 11. Epist. ad Corinth.i. p. 2. 12. Ibid. p. 104. 13. Epist. ad Corinth. 1:p. 64. 14. Ibid. p. 6. 15. Ibid. p. 130. 16. Epist. ad Corinth. 1:p. 88. 17. Ibid. p. 114. 18. Ibid. p. 20. 19. Episi. ad Corinth. p. 130, 114.
     
    #1 Alan Gross, Feb 3, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist
    AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

    YOU ARE CONFUSING US WITH FACTS!!!!!


    AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is perhaps too easy for us to take quotes from early writers and place them in another context.

    I don't doubt, for example, Clenent's quote. He strongly emphadized salvation by grace. But at the same time Clement, in the same source, taught synergism (man and God working side by side in one's own salvation). So we need to be careful when reaching back into antiquity with the purpose of finding support (we need to take their writings as a whole rather than pulling out quotes).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist

    AAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

    Fun read but Gill seems to forget that the ELECT are the ones that freely trusted in Christ Jesus. Gill has his point of view and then goes searching for something that he thinks will support it.

    AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,643
    Likes Received:
    642
    Faith:
    Baptist
    “Freely”?

    really

    pelagianiam is heresy sir
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Who are you talking to and calling, "sir", sir?

    Where did you split this hair from?

    to get
    CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
    1. the theological doctrine of Pelagius and his followers, in particular the denial of the doctrines of original sin and predestination, and the defense of innate human goodness and free will.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
    must worship him in spirit and in truth."
    / facts.

    The Eternal Council of God for the Salvation of souls,
    depicted in The Bible Doctrines of Grace,
    i.e., Predestination / Reprobation, Redemption,
    Original Sin, Efficacious Grace, and Perseverance,

    did not end with the writings of The Old and New Testament
    and they didn't begin with Calvin.

    Jude 1:3, KJV: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence
    to write unto you of the common salvation,
    it was needful for me to write unto you,
    and exhort you that ye should earnestly
    contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Or, maybe the Bible Context, to which they are placed (almost word for word) is hidden from you.


    Wise.

    Prudent.


    Or, maybe he is a babe, like the writers of the other 122 articles,
    that doesn't throw out the baby with the bath water.

    Matthew 11:25; "At that time Jesus answered and said,
    I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
    because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,
    and hast revealed them unto babes."

    Philippians 2:12; "Wherefore, my beloved,
    as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
    but now much more in my absence,
    work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree it is that is why free will is not pelagianism. Take the time to study the ECF even Augustine before his fight with Pelagus held to free will. Then he fell back to his early pagan teachings and lost his way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. I am talking about Clements words (in his 1st epistle....the only one that is believed authentic).

    I'm not saying Clement was correct, just that his doctrine is closer to Arminianism than it is Calvinism. He taught that salvation is by faith, but his view was what we would call synergism.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Synergism - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Synergism

    In Christian theology, synergism is the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

    The Cause of God and Truth

    Of Original Sin
    The Impotence of Man’s Free Will
    and the Necessity of the Grace of God,
    To Every Thing That Is Spiritually Good

    pg 681—Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.

    Clemens was so far from ascribing vocation, conversion, or sanctification, to the will of man, that he always considers it as the effect and produce of the will of God.

    His epistle to the Corinthians begins thus, 7 “The church of God which dwells at Rome, to the church of God which dwells at Corinth, kletois egiasmenois en thelemati Theou, ‘to the called and sanctified by the will of God,’ through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    He denies that men are called and justified, and come to honor, glory, and greatness, by themselves, or by their own works, but by the will and grace of God; for thus he expresses himself, 8

    “All therefore are glorified and magnified, ou di eauton, e ton ergon auton, e tes dikaiopragias, es katargeisantoi, alla dia ton thelematos auton, not by themselves or their own works of righteous actions, which they have wrought out, but by his will;” and we also being called by his will in Christ Jesus are justified, ou di eauton, ou de dia tes emeteras sophias, e suneseos, e eusebeias, e ergon, on kateirgasametha, en osioteti kardias, “‘not by ourselves, nor by our wisdom, or understanding, or piety, or the works which we have done in holiness of heart,’ but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Notice what Clemens of Romaus said “‘not by ourselves, nor by our wisdom, or understanding, or piety, or the works which we have done in holiness of heart,’ but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

    Note he said God justifies those that have faith and this just as He has done from the beginning. Those that have freely trusted in the Son are those that God saves.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Look back at your post (it is a wonderful example of what I have been talking about).

    You give a definition of synergism.

    You then provide a statement claiming Clement, contrary to traditional scholarship, did not hold a view of salvation that equates to synergism.

    Then you provide quotes from Clement that fall short of proving your claim.

    Clement believed men come to faith "not by themselves". Why do you think that is not synergism?
     
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,409
    Likes Received:
    1,761
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for doing the research and sharing this info.

    peace to you
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, sir. Praise the Lord.

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
    not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
    which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Timothy 1:9
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Because they come to faith "not by themselves", but entirely by God?,
    with NO synergism.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    559
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He denies that men are called and justified, and come to honor, glory, and greatness, by themselves, or by their own works, but by the will and grace of God; for thus he expresses himself,8 “All therefore are glorified and magnified, ou di eauton, e ton ergon auton, e tes dikaiopragias, es katargeisantoi, alla dia ton thelematos auton, not by themselves or their own works of righteous actions, which they have wrought out, but by his will;” and we also being called by his will in Christ Jesus are justified, ou di eauton, ou de dia tes emeteras sophias, e suneseos, e eusebeias, e ergon, on kateirgasametha, en osioteti kardias, not by ourselves, nor by our wisdom, or understanding, or piety, or the works which we have done in holiness of heart,’ but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”


    So we see that it is not by their greatness or works but by the will of God that one is called & justified. He then continues to tell us why we are justified, it‘s not because we are wise or pious or even our good deeds. It is because we have faith in Christ Jesus. We can not justify ourselves. God draws us to Himself and we must respond in faith. That is synergism.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Problem, of course, is that you are reading into Clement.

    I actually agree with you in terms of salvation being solely a work of God.

    But having studied the ECF's, including Clement, that is not what he taught (not the way you are presenting it, anyway).

    Clement taught universal atonement (Christ died for the "whole human family"). All of the ECF's held a Christian universalist salvation (not Universalism, but that Christ died for all men).

    Clement taught that men must yield to God's will, and salvation is all God.

    Arminianism teaches this as well. Calvinism does not (Calvinism teaches "irresistable grace").

    Calvinists typically consider Clements doctrine to be synergism because men and God come together in salvation (men yeild to God's will and are saved solely by God).

    This does not seem to fit in how you are presenting Clement.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    pg 617 Part 4 - Chapter 2. Introduction - Of Redemption

    Dr. Whitby says, that the confirmation of the doctrine of universal redemption, from the suffrage of all antiquity, is sufficiently done by Vossius, in his Historia Pelagiana, where he lays down these two positions,

    1. That "the sense of the ancient church was, that God wills the conversion and salvation of all."

    2. That "it was the judgment of the ancient church, that Christ had provided an universal remedy for the universal fault of men, by paying a ransom of infinite value, lest any one should perish through the defect of it."

    He further observes, that this is more copiously done by Mr. Dally (he means Monsieur Daille) by producing the testimonies of the ancients from the first to the twelfth century; and concluding thus, "Certainly I do not find one in the first eight ages of Christianity that has said absolutely, and in terms, as is commonly said, that Christ died only for the elect."

    Here the Doctor rests, and would have his readers trust to and depend upon the conclusions and assertions of these two men.

    Vossius’s Pelagian History must be allowed to be a very considerable performance, and is the fund and magazine of antiquity for the Arminians.

    Dr. Twisse intended an answer to it, and in one of his books says, he had entered upon it; but death I suppose prevented his design, at least it never was published; such a work, by so learned a hand, might have been of great service.

    But why should we trust to Vossius’s account of the judgment of the ancient church in this point, since Dr. Whitby himself would not trust him in another?
    namely, original sin; though he was so very positive as to say "The catholic church always so judged;" and the Doctor tells us, that "upon an impartial search he found that all the passages he had collected were impertinent, or at least insufficient to prove the point."

    This gives no encouragement to depend on him. And inasmuch as the several passages cited by Vossius are also, with many others, produced by Monsieur Daille, I shall only attend to the latter, and to those only of the first four centuries; and though he observes, that in these and the four following ages, none ever said absolutely, and in express terms, that Christ died only for the elect;

    yet it does not follow, but that some might say it, in other terms and words equivalent, of the same signification, and which amounted to the same sense.

    It must be owned, that Monsieur Daille has collected a large number of testimonies indeed; but when it is considered, that multitudes of them are only expressed in Scripture language, and so capable of the same sense the Scriptures are;

    others regard men of all sorts, ranks, and degrees;

    others Jews and Gentiles;

    others the sufficiency of Christ’s death for all;

    and others, some general benefit by it, as the resurrection of the dead;

    their number will be greatly reduced, and very few left to be of any service to the cause for which they are brought;

    besides, it will be made to appear in the following Sections, that the ancients often describe the persons for whom Christ died by such characters as cannot agree with all men.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Simply put, the Early Church didn't ask the questions we ask probably because they were too busy living (and dying for) their faith.

    The notion that Christ died for only the elect is much later than the Early Church. That fact alone doesn't mean it is wrong, just that the Early Church didn't ask the question regarding the scope of atonement.

    My observation is that people today tend to read their views into earlier writings (and into Scripture), not that any particular view is wrong.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Loading...