Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Since your post prior to that was nice I have decided that you get to ride in the canoe instead of being the guy who took the "center shot" from Burt Reynolds. Peace?

Kentucky, I think Dave is suggesting you don’t have to squeal like a pig!

 

[JD731]

I'm quoting John R. Rice from his book "False Doctrines" page 275 in the chapter on "Hyper-Calvinism"
"God...now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:30). Can anyone accuse God of commanding people to do what He has made it impossible for them to do?"

Can that be squared with " No man can come to Christ, unless the Father draws him". John 6:44 ?

It seems to me that you can go several ways with this.
1. John Rice is correct.
2. The Calvinists who say you have a group of people who are elect and they alone are involved in any call to faith and
repentance.
3. It is legitimate and God does call on everyone to repent and they can properly be held responsible because the problem is
is with the depravity of the person themself and with their affections and will.

To me, number 3 is the only way it makes sense. What do you with John 6:44? (Or the whole of John 6?)

It might help you to know what those in John 6 were called on to come to Jesus Christ as. Those in that crowd that day were not called on to believe that Jesus Christ was put to death, buried, and raised again from the dead.They were to believe that he was the bread of life that was proven on the mount the day before and that he was the Son of God who was sent down from heaven to give life to the world by a one time gift.

I can prove this by quoting the apostles who were in that crowd that day and to whom Jesus addressed.

Jn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

That is all anyone during the ministry of Jesus were required to believe in order to come to him, that he was the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God. They would be justified by believing God who proclaimed it through his Son.

Here is a later quote from some of these same men.

Mr 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Mr 9:30 And they departed thence, and passed through Galilee; and he would not that any man should know it.
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. 32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

John said this as late as the resurrection day:
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Justification in the OT and the NT is by believing what God reveals to you. God justified every Israelite who believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God. After the resurrection of Jesus Christ, one must believe the gospel, which is his death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Dave, may I suggest the book, The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice. Approx 200 pages. It provided me a good understanding from both a biblical and a historical prospective. Just a suggestion.

 

[DaveXR650]

Toss out Calvinism as that's irrelevant. What does the Bible say?

You declare that "salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved."

Now, what does the Bible say? Does it agree with what you have asserted?

*Ephesians 2:4-9*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What I notice is that our salvation is by God's grace, which happened even while we were still dead in sins. I notice that faith is a gift given as an effect of God's grace being given.

What I also notice is your projection as an accusation that somehow my observation of Ephesians 2 may be Pharisaic or Gnostic. What do you think. Is my observation of the text coming from some source outside of the text, like a Pharisee or a Gnostic would do.

Dave, thanks for sharing your theology. It's the first time you've actually been plain and forthright about what you believe. Clearly, you and I disagree on what Ephesians 2 is saying.

"Believeth on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved", "Whosoever believeth on him hath everlasting life". So "those who come to Christ by faith are saved" is a heresy? What you did there is a perfect example of what I was saying. The Bible says what I said - word for word. You come on, and start quoting Ephesians, which I had not mentioned and try to make a case that what I said was some kind of a heresy simply because I did not assert some aspect of salvation that you wanted to stress.
According to you John 3:36 is heresy. This is why it is impossible to converse with you and people like you. It's a sad thing that you weren't around to when the guy asked " What must I do to be saved?" I guess he got some bad information.

 

[DaveXR650]

Try reading your Bible

Dave, may I suggest the book, The Doctrines of Grace by James Montgomery Boice. Approx 200 pages. It provided me a good understanding from both a biblical and a historical prospective. Just a suggestion.

After your conversations on here YOU"RE now going to suggest a book? I'm not finished with the Bible yet.

 

[DaveXR650]

Justification in the OT and the NT is by believing what God reveals to you. God justified every Israelite who believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God. After the resurrection of Jesus Christ, one must believe the gospel, which is his death, burial, and resurrection.

That makes sense. In the OP, and on the previous thread, the discussion came up as it often does on here, can a man understand and desire to believe on his own or does the Holy Spirit have to do something to him or is conviction necessary or is there general grace enough given to everyone to do this. Like when Peter said "Thou are the Christ, the son of the living God", and Jesus said "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you", did he mean some internal action of the Holy Spirit or that this was the truth of God versus men?

 

[AustinC]

"Believeth on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved", "Whosoever believeth on him hath everlasting life". So "those who come to Christ by faith are saved" is a heresy? What you did there is a perfect example of what I was saying. The Bible says what I said - word for word. You come on, and start quoting Ephesians, which I had not mentioned and try to make a case that what I said was some kind of a heresy simply because I did not assert some aspect of salvation that you wanted to stress.
According to you John 3:36 is heresy. This is why it is impossible to converse with you and people like you. It's a sad thing that you weren't around to when the guy asked " What must I do to be saved?" I guess he got some bad information.

So, quote me where I say John 3:36 is heresy. I would like to know, since you assertion "according to you" which means I have stated that John 3:36 is heresy.

Now, here is John 3:36.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

What would make you think I declare this word heresy?
DaveX, what does the Bible say about who it is that will believe? Here's a passage that helps us understand who will believe.

*John 10:25-29*
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

So, DaveX, what does the Bible say about who it is that will believe? Also, why is it that others do not believe?

DaveX, it is God's word that I have been reading. When I was young, my theology was a product of upbringing and secondary sources, telling me what to believe. As I got older, I immersed myself in reading God's word and what I read was in conflict with what my free will mentors had taught me. The question became, do I hold to what humans had taught me, or do I hold to what the Bible tells me. The Bible won out over secondary commentaries.

 

[DaveXR650]

You declare that "salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved."

Now, what does the Bible say? Does it agree with what you have asserted?

Is this not what you said? Then you went on to refute it. But the point is, what I said was the same as John 3:36 and numerous other verses. You are so wrapped up in this higher knowledge that you cannot see how you are losing the basics.

What would make you think I declare this word heresy?

Because it says the same thing I said and you took issue with it. What am I supposed to think?

 

[AustinC]

Is this not what you said? Then you went on to refute it. But the point is, what I said was the same as John 3:36 and numerous other verses. You are so wrapped up in this higher knowledge that you cannot see how you are losing the basics.

Because it says the same thing I said and you took issue with it. What am I supposed to think?

Here's what I said. See if you can discern the difference between what you said and what the Bible says in Ephesians 2.

David, there is no "higher knowledge" that I am claiming. I am pointing you to what God very objectively tells us all in the very text of the Bible.

Now, I don't accept you trying to play dumb since you are so well read. If anyone has claimed "higher knowledge" it is you who claims to have read so many authors of the past.
All I am doing is pointing at the text of scripture and showing how scripture interprets itself. You quoted one sentence in John 3. I added verses John 10 that help you understand John 3. This cannot be that difficult for you since you are so well read.

Below is my post. Re-read it and see that this is God's word, not some "higher knowledge." I take that accusation from you to be your attempt to avoid what scripture is telling you regarding how it is we came to believe.

So, quote me where I say John 3:36 is heresy. I would like to know, since you assertion "according to you" which means I have stated that John 3:36 is heresy.

Now, here is John 3:36.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

What would make you think I declare this word heresy?
DaveX, what does the Bible say about who it is that will believe? Here's a passage that helps us understand who will believe.

*John 10:25-29*
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

So, DaveX, what does the Bible say about who it is that will believe? Also, why is it that others do not believe?

DaveX, it is God's word that I have been reading. When I was young, my theology was a product of upbringing and secondary sources, telling me what to believe. As I got older, I immersed myself in reading God's word and what I read was in conflict with what my free will mentors had taught me. The question became, do I hold to what humans had taught me, or do I hold to what the Bible tells me. The Bible won out over secondary commentaries.

 

[JD731]

That makes sense. In the OP, and on the previous thread, the discussion came up as it often does on here, can a man understand and desire to believe on his own or does the Holy Spirit have to do something to him or is conviction necessary or is there general grace enough given to everyone to do this. Like when Peter said "Thou are the Christ, the son of the living God", and Jesus said "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you", did he mean some internal action of the Holy Spirit or that this was the truth of God versus men?

"Reveal" means to make manifest. However it was all that Peter believed. Almost in the next breath he was rebuking our Lord because he mentioned that he was going to Jerusalem to die. He did not believe it then in Matt 16 and he did not believe it after Jesus rose again from the dead, even after it was told him by an eye witness.

You guys are thinking way too much. Just believe what you read and wait until God reveals something else to you through his word. The revelation of God to you is over the minute you refuse to believe him. Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, as did every other justified believer in the gospel account. That is all any of them believed, except maybe Mary, the sister of Martha, and a few older saints who were waiting for the redemption of Israel.

The flesh and blood he is speaking of are natural things. Jesus Christ had worked many miracles in their presence and Peter and the Jews had been reading about the Messiah in their synagogues for all their lives. It was not rocket science for them to weigh the heavenly witness against the words of the OT prophesies to understand this was really God in the flesh and prophesy fulfilled.

First Corinthians 1:22 says clearly that the Jews require a sign and the ministry of Jesus was filled with miraculous signs. Put two and two together.

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

After your conversations on here YOU"RE now going to suggest a book? I'm not finished with the Bible yet.

I certainly am… BTW, I’m not the one who called us people from deliverance so own that one. Still, it’s worth the effort to at least attempt to understand Christian’s who follow systematic theology which as I’ve indicated before, comes from scripture.

Maybe also do a deep dive into the Baptist ( London) Confessions of Faith. Those confessions are Particular Baptist in nature … without any trace of fullerism influences

 

[AustinC]

Because it says the same thing I said and you took issue with it. What am I supposed to think?

John 3:36 says this:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

You declare that "salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved."

Now, where does John 3:36 say what you asserted?

 

[DaveXR650]

You declare that "salvation is by faith in Christ. Those who come to Christ by faith are saved."

Now, what does the Bible say? Does it agree with what you have asserted?

Now, where does John 3:36 say what you asserted?

Are you really going to double down on this? It really looks bad. Do you really think Paul gave wrong advice to the Philippian jailor? Acts 16:30-31 In a way though, it shows what I'm talking about. You are so much into your theology that you really do believe that it's less important to talk about faith in Christ than it is to pounce on someone who doesn't emphasize the total inability to believe on your own. You would actually make belief in the concept of faith being a gift more important than faith being what links you to Christ. This is really warped.

 

[DaveXR650]

BTW, I’m not the one who called us people from deliverance so own that one.

Kentucky, I think Dave is suggesting you don’t have to squeal like a pig!

I own it. Sorry. I guess it's only OK when you think it's funny.
A lot of Baptists who like the 1689 Confession also like Fuller. I'm not that familiar with him myself. The first time I heard of him was while reading Martyn Lloyd Jones. You seem to have something against Fuller. If so share it, now that I seem to have permission to bring in other references again.

 

[AustinC]

Are you really going to double down on this? It really looks bad. Do you really think Paul gave wrong advice to the Philippian jailor? Acts 16:30-31 In a way though, it shows what I'm talking about. You are so much into your theology that you really do believe that it's less important to talk about faith in Christ than it is to pounce on someone who doesn't emphasize the total inability to believe on your own. You would actually make belief in the concept of faith being a gift more important than faith being what links you to Christ. This is really warped.

DavidX, what does scripture say?
Unless you can explain how Ephesians 2:1-9 is wrong, or how John 10 does not inform how to understand John 3, then you really have no argument. Instead, you're simply being incredulous because I am demanding more data from scripture than you can produce.
DaveX, you made an assertion that you cannot backup and John 3:36 does not actually support your assertion. So, unless you are going to debate from God's word, you have lost any credibility with your assertion.

So, show me how my observation of Ephesians 2:1-10, John 3:36 and John 10 are wrong regarding salvation by grace alone.

As to faith, God's word tells us that faith is the effect of God's gracious saving work in regenerating us from death to life. So, faith, for the believer is a sign of salvation. Faith is not the cause of salvation. But, you are teaching faith as the cause, which is not taught in the Bible. It's not in Acts 16, which may cause you to flip out, again, but it's not there.

Faith is an effect of salvation, not a cause of salvation. The Bible is clear on this matter.

 

[DaveXR650]

Unless you can explain how Ephesians 2:1-9 is wrong, or how John 10 does not inform how to understand John 3, then you really have no argument. Instead, you're simply being incredulous because I am demanding more data from scripture than you can produce.

No. Actually I don't have to explain any of those other passages. I agree with them. The only assertion I made was the original one that salvation was by faith in Christ. All those other verses emphasize that. That's a nice try at manipulation. You came on my thread and started trolling me, demanding that I give you some definite theology. I start with the most simple, basic and easy to understand thing I can think of and you come on and butcher it completely, showing that you don't even have a grasp of the basics. There are several of you on here, mostly Calvinists, who for some reason have put yourselves up as some combination of the Spanish Inquisition or the Knights Templar, or some kind of guardians of the faith when in reality you don't even have a good understanding of your own theology. And you prove it every time you get on here. So keep going.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

No one said otherwise. That doesn't mean we get to redefine what a "work" is in the scriptures; and free will faith, far from being categorized as a "work" by Paul, is rather set in contra-distinction to work:

Yes, that is a misconception hard to fathom. Where in the world one gets it I know not, but certainly not from scripture.

 

[Alan Gross]

As to faith, God's word tells us that faith is the effect of God's gracious saving work in regenerating us

Titus 2:1
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

from death to life

"Dead"; Ephesians 2.

Ether God Gives the soul a Teachable Spirit to reconcile "dead" with their understanding of how God Saves a soul, or they will assume the O.P. and remain carnal in their "thinking", if not lost.

It is God Who "Quickens" to ETERNAL LIFE, from the dead.

. So, faith, for the believer is a sign of salvation. Faith is not the cause of salvation.

Faith is the Gift of God.

But, you are teaching faith as the cause, which is not taught in the Bible. It's not in Acts 16, which may cause you to flip out, again, but it's not there.

There is One Way God Saves a soul, when He finds them lost and dead in their sins and it is not by a leopard "believing" it can change it's spots.

 

[kyredneck]

No one said otherwise. That doesn't mean we get to redefine what a "work" is in the scriptures; and free will faith, far from being categorized as a "work" by Paul, is rather set in contra-distinction to work:

Yes, that is a misconception hard to fathom. Where in the world one gets it I know not, but certainly not from scripture.

Jn 6:29

 

[Alan Gross]

How many different ways of Duty Faith/ Easy "Believism"/ Decisionism do you have, altogether?

A dead soul just "gives their consent" to something, without acknowledgement of their sin, by CONVICTION of the Word of God, being Granted REPENTANCE from their sin debt against God, or Regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

How do you think you "came to be a Christian?" Can you share a testimony of salvation?

Those in that crowd that day were not called on to believe that Jesus Christ was put to death, buried, and raised again from the dead

that he was the Son of God who was sent down from heaven to give life to the world by a one time gift.

That is all anyone during the ministry of Jesus were required to believe in order to come to him, that he was the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God.

They would be justified by believing God who

Justification in the OT and the NT is by believing what God reveals to you.

. God justified every Israelite who believed Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

After the resurrection of Jesus Christ, one must believe the gospel, which is his death, burial, and resurrection.

"Reveal" means to make manifest. However it was all that Peter believed

Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, as did every other justified believer in the gospel account

That is all any of them believed, except maybe Mary, the sister of Martha, and a few older saints who were waiting for the redemption of Israel.

It was not rocket science for them to weigh the heavenly witness against the words of the OT prophesies to understand this was really God in the flesh and prophesy fulfilled.

First Corinthians 1:22 says clearly that the Jews require a sign and the ministry of Jesus was filled with miraculous signs.