The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?7

[JonC]

The Ministry of reconciliation is to the already reconciled to God. The Ministry is used by God to give them faith in the already truth of being reconciled.

2 Cor 5:18-20

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Be ye reconciled here is in the passive voice, an imperative, so God uses the word preached o cause the already reconciled to receive this blessed truth by Faith. Faith cometh by hearing.

See vs 19 says none of them reconciled have sin charged to them.

I disagree.

The passage doesn't allow for the possibility of men being reconciled to God yet still in need of being reconciled to God.

It is a present ministry (the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God).

The idea that Christ died for our individual sins, ineffect forgiving those sins by suffering for them in stead of us suffering, as reconciliation is fairly new to Christianity.

 

[Brightfame52]

I disagree.

The passage doesn't allow for the possibility of men being reconciled to God yet still in need of being reconciled to God.

It is a present ministry (the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God).

The idea that Christ died for our individual sins, ineffect forgiving those sins by suffering for them in stead of us suffering, as reconciliation is fairly new to Christianity.

Thats fine, you can disagree all you like. Paul plainly said they were reconciled to God already 2 Cor 5:18-19

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

People who Christ died for were reconciled to God by His death even while they were enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So its not me you disagree with but Apostolic Teaching friend.

 

[JonC]

Thats fine, you can disagree all you like. Paul plainly said they were reconciled to God already 2 Cor 5:18-19

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

People who Christ died for were reconciled to God by His death even while they were enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So its not me you disagree with but Apostolic Teaching friend.

No, I don't disagree with Paul at all.

We (Christians) are reconciled already. And we (Christians) are given the ministry of reconciliation, urging men (non-Christians) to be reconciled to God (because they, as individual men, are not). And we (man) have been reconciled to God while we (man) were yet enemies of God (obviously, as we...you and I....were not born when Christ died on the Cross and were enemies, not yet reconciled to God).

You have made the common mistake of not recognizing the audience. It may help you to avoid the error in the future if you stick with the context of a passage rather than cherry picking verses from different epistles.

That is perhaps the reason you find discernment so difficult here (had you allowed each passage stand rather than filtering a few verses through your presuppositions, I think you would have avoided the mistake).

 

[Brightfame52]

jon c

No, I don't disagree with Paul at all.

Im afraid you do, but hey, we will see at Judgment day

We (Christians) are reconciled already.

Christians were reconciled to God by Christs death when they were unbelieving enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now that statement is as plain as the nose on your face.

And we (Christians) are given the ministry of reconciliation, urging men (non-Christians) to be reconciled to God (because they, as individual men, are not).

Pauls ministry was to the already reconciled, they were reconciled to God by His death, and they were new creatures look at Vs 17 of the context 2 Cor 5:17-20

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Sorry but this ministry isnt to the lost unregenerate people of the world.

And we (man) have been reconciled to God while we (man) were yet enemies of God (obviously, as we...you and I....were not born when Christ died on the Cross and were enemies, not yet reconciled to God).

You just contradicted yourself, plus, people Christ died for didnt have to be born yet in order for Christ to die for their sins.

You have made the common mistake of not recognizing the audience. It may help you to avoid the error in the future if you stick with the context of a passage rather than cherry picking verses from different epistles

The audience is the Church of God ! 2 Cor 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia

I dont think you understand these matters at all friend. May God be merciful unto you !

 

[JonC]

jon c



Im afraid you do, but hey, we will see at Judgment day



Christians were reconciled to God by Christs death when they were unbelieving enemies. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now that statement is as plain as the nose on your face.



Pauls ministry was to the already reconciled, they were reconciled to God by His death, and they were new creatures look at Vs 17 of the context 2 Cor 5:17-20

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Sorry but this ministry isnt to the lost unregenerate people of the world.



You just contradicted yourself, plus, people Christ died for didnt have to be born yet in order for Christ to die for their sins.



The audience is the Church of God ! 2 Cor 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia

I dont think you understand these matters at all friend. May God be merciful unto you !

I think what we have to do is rest on Scripture when it comes to doctrine. That is, ultimately, where we disagree.

I did not contradict myself. Read my post again.

You took part of a passage from Romans and part of a passage from Corinthians to decide that Paul did not really mean that men still needed to be reconciled to God in any meaningful way. That is poor hermeneutics.

As far as Judgment Day goes, it is Christ who makes us stand.

At one time I would have entertained the neoChristianity that you advocate. I probably would have agreed to some extent.

But as I get older I find myself appreciating the old faith and being less drawn to newer interpretations.

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

To be redeemed from all iniquity does include being redeemed from unbelief, the prison of unbelief. It should be remembered that to be in unbelief/disobedience is a matter of being imprisoned, for it is written in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

To be concluded in unbelief is to be imprisoned to it. The greek word concluded is sygkleiō and means:


I.to shut up together, enclose

A.of a shoal of fishes in a net



II.to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

Man by nature is Locked up in Unbelief / disobedience !

Rom 11:32

32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience, so that he might show mercy to them all.GNT

32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.HCSB

This is important to know, and this is why its impossible for any sinner by nature to believe and or obey, to say they can, is to say they overcame in their flesh being imprisoned to unbelief, which means they redeemed themselves out of the prison of unbelief and not Christ, which is Idolatry and antichrist ! 31

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !2

Again, to be concluded in unbelief as Per Rom 11:32 is to be literally imprisoned:

to confine in or as if in a prison And the only release from it is the the Redemption that is in and through Christ Jesus !

Rom 3:24; Eph 1:7 the word redemption apolytrōsis means:

I.a releasing effected by payment of ransom

A.redemption, deliverance


B.liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

Now understand something, by His Death alone He paid the ransom price to God's Justice that causes an immediate release from #1 The Penalty of sin and #2 the consequences of sin, which one was to be imprisoned into unbelief / disobedience Per Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

32 For God has made all people prisoners of disobedience GNT

32 For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience ISV

32 For God closed all things together in unbelief [Forsooth God closed together all things in unbelief], that he have mercy on all. WYC

So because His Blood alone paid the Redemptive Price, all for whom the Blood was shed for, must be as a matter of Justice be set free from, liberated fro, released from all the consequences of sin, which unbelief is one of those consequences, hence imprisoned in unbelief because of sin ! So Those Christ died for must be brought out of the Prison house of unbelief as an evidence that God has accepted His Blood as their Redemptive Price to free them from the prison of unbelief !

 

[JonC]

Question - Are there actually any passages that say Christ's death paid the random price to God's justice?

Answer - No. In fact, that is a relatively recent interpretation of the Cross.

 

[Brightfame52]

Question - Are there actually any passages that say Christ's death paid the random price to God's justice?

Answer - No. In fact, that is a relatively recent interpretation of the Cross.

Are there actual passages that says Christs death did not pay the ransom price to Gods Justice ? No

Do you believe Christs death redeems them He died for from all iniquity to include unbelief ?

 

[JonC]

Are there actual passages that says Christs death did not pay the ransom price to Gods Justice ? No

Logical fallacy. There are no passages that say Paul struggled with homosexuality, but that absence does not validate the claim Paul was gay.

As Christians we develop doctrine based on what is written in God's Word -NOT on what isn't.

Do you believe Christs death redeems them He died for from all iniquity to include unbelief ?

I believe we were purchased with the blood of Christ and that Christ freed us from the bondage of sin and death.

 

[Alan Gross]

Question - Are there actually any passages that say Christ's death paid the random price to God's justice?

Answer - No. In fact, that is a relatively recent interpretation of the Cross.

from: THE DOCTRINE OF THE ATONEMENT, by T.P. Simmons

II. THE NATURE OF THE ATONEMENT

2. THE CORRECT VIEW OF THE ATONEMENT

pg. 324 D. The Truth as to the Substitutionary Nature of the Atonement.

The following passages show that the suffering of Christ was a substitute for the suffering that believers would have undergone in Hell:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows ... was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:4-6). "

. . . being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forebearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at the present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:24,25).

Propitiation is a synonym of expiation, which means "enduring the full penalty of a wrong or crime."

Propitiation appeases the lawgiver by satisfying the law in the rendering of "a full legal equivalent for the wrong done."

". . . Christ died for us. Much more then, being justified by his blood,
shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him" (Rom. 5:8,9).

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" (Rom. 8:33).

The implied answer is, No one. And the implied reason is, because Christ has paid their sin debt by suffering the penalty of the law in their stead.

"Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Rom. 10:4).

". . .our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ" (1 Cor. 5:7).

"Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

We become the righteousness of God in Christ, not through any moral influence of the death of Christ upon us, but by the imputation of righteousness to us through faith apart from works. See Rom. 4:1-8.

". . . Christ. . . gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God . . . "Eph. 5:2).

". . . offered one sacrifice for sins forever. . ." (Heb. 10:12)"

"Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God . . . "(I Pet. 3:18).

E. The Truth as to the Redeeming of Ransoming Features of the Atonement.

Note the following passages: "The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28).

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God,
and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30).

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13).

"God sent forth his Son . . . that he might redeem them that were under the law" (Gal. 4:4,5).

" . . . in whom we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph. 1:7).

". . .who gave himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:6).

". . .who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).

". . . through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12).

"Ye were redeemed . . . with precious blood . . . even the blood of Christ" (I Pet. 1:18,19).

". . . thou wast slain, and didst redeem unto God with thy blood, men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9).

In the passages above in which "redeem" or one of its cognates appears we have four Greek words or their cognates:
"agorazo," meaning "to acquire at the forum;"
"exagorazo" to acquire out of the forum;"
"lutroo," "to loose by a price;"
and "apolutrosis," "a loosing away."

The Greek words in the passages where "ransom" appears are respectively "lutron," "a price," and "antilutron," "a corresponding price."

The plain meaning of these passages, in the light of the rest of the New Testament, especially Rom. 3:25,26, is that the death of Christ was the price of our deliverance from sin's penalty. See further Rom. 8: 1,33,34; 10:4.

Gal. 3:13 describes exactly how we are redeemed when it tells us that we are redeemed from the curse of the law through Christ who became a curse for us. He bore the curse we deserve.

He paid the penalty we owed. For that reason we go free.

Note that "ransom" in 1 Tim. 2:6 means "a corresponding price."

This means that the price paid by Christ corresponded to the debt we owed.

In other words Christ suffered the exact equivalent of that which those for whom He died would have suffered in Hell.

If the justice of God demanded that Christ die in order that God might justify sinners, the same justice demanded that He pay the full penalty owed by the sinners.

Justice can forego all the penalty as easily as it can forego the least part of it.

"For God to take that as satisfaction which is not really such is to say that there is no truth in anything. God may take a part for the whole; error for truth, wrong for right . . . If every created thing offered to God is worth just so much as God accepts it for, then the blood of bulls and goats might take away sins, and Christ is dead in vain" (Hodge, Syst. Theol., 2:573-581; 3:188,189).

"God did not send Christ forever into Hell; but He put on Christ punishment that was equivalent for that. Although He did not give Christ to drink the actual Hell of believers, yet He gave Him a quid pro quo--something that was equivalent thereunto, He took the cup of Christ's agony, and He put in there, suffering, misery and anguish . . . that was the exact equivalent for all the suffering, all the eternal tortures of every one that shall at last stand in Heaven, bought with the blood of Christ" (Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 217).

"The penalty paid by Christ is strictly and literally equivalent to that which the sinner would have borne, although it is not identical. The vicarious bearing of it excludes the latter" (Shedd, Discourses and Essays, p. 307).

"Substitution excludes identity of suffering; it does not exclude equivalence"

 

[Brightfame52]

Logical fallacy. There are no passages that say Paul struggled with homosexuality, but that absence does not validate the claim Paul was gay.

As Christians we develop doctrine based on what is written in God's Word -NOT on what isn't.

I believe we were purchased with the blood of Christ and that Christ freed us from the bondage of sin and death.

Lol You started the logical fallacy !

 

[Brightfame52]

jon

I believe we were purchased with the blood of Christ and that Christ freed us from the bondage of sin and death.

Then He freed us from unbelief and spiritual death. Thats why people He died for are regenerated and given the gift of Faith to believe, thats evidence Christ purchased them from sin and death.

 

[JonC]

from: THE DOCTRINE OF THE ATONEMENT, by T.P. Simmons

II. THE NATURE OF THE ATONEMENT

2. THE CORRECT VIEW OF THE ATONEMENT

pg. 324 D. The Truth as to the Substitutionary Nature of the Atonement.

The following passages show that the suffering of Christ was a substitute for the suffering that believers would have undergone in Hell:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows ... was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:4-6). "

. . . being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forebearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at the present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:24,25).

Propitiation is a synonym of expiation, which means "enduring the full penalty of a wrong or crime."

Propitiation appeases the lawgiver by satisfying the law in the rendering of "a full legal equivalent for the wrong done."

". . . Christ died for us. Much more then, being justified by his blood,
shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him" (Rom. 5:8,9).

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" (Rom. 8:33).

The implied answer is, No one. And the implied reason is, because Christ has paid their sin debt by suffering the penalty of the law in their stead.

"Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Rom. 10:4).

". . .our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ" (1 Cor. 5:7).

"Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

We become the righteousness of God in Christ, not through any moral influence of the death of Christ upon us, but by the imputation of righteousness to us through faith apart from works. See Rom. 4:1-8.

". . . Christ. . . gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God . . . "Eph. 5:2).

". . . offered one sacrifice for sins forever. . ." (Heb. 10:12)"

"Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God . . . "(I Pet. 3:18).

E. The Truth as to the Redeeming of Ransoming Features of the Atonement.

Note the following passages: "The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28).

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God,
and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30).

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13).

"God sent forth his Son . . . that he might redeem them that were under the law" (Gal. 4:4,5).

" . . . in whom we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph. 1:7).

". . .who gave himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:6).

". . .who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).

". . . through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12).

"Ye were redeemed . . . with precious blood . . . even the blood of Christ" (I Pet. 1:18,19).

". . . thou wast slain, and didst redeem unto God with thy blood, men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9).

In the passages above in which "redeem" or one of its cognates appears we have four Greek words or their cognates:
"agorazo," meaning "to acquire at the forum;"
"exagorazo" to acquire out of the forum;"
"lutroo," "to loose by a price;"
and "apolutrosis," "a loosing away."

The Greek words in the passages where "ransom" appears are respectively "lutron," "a price," and "antilutron," "a corresponding price."

The plain meaning of these passages, in the light of the rest of the New Testament, especially Rom. 3:25,26, is that the death of Christ was the price of our deliverance from sin's penalty. See further Rom. 8: 1,33,34; 10:4.

Gal. 3:13 describes exactly how we are redeemed when it tells us that we are redeemed from the curse of the law through Christ who became a curse for us. He bore the curse we deserve.

He paid the penalty we owed. For that reason we go free.

Note that "ransom" in 1 Tim. 2:6 means "a corresponding price."

This means that the price paid by Christ corresponded to the debt we owed.

In other words Christ suffered the exact equivalent of that which those for whom He died would have suffered in Hell.

If the justice of God demanded that Christ die in order that God might justify sinners, the same justice demanded that He pay the full penalty owed by the sinners.

Justice can forego all the penalty as easily as it can forego the least part of it.

"For God to take that as satisfaction which is not really such is to say that there is no truth in anything. God may take a part for the whole; error for truth, wrong for right . . . If every created thing offered to God is worth just so much as God accepts it for, then the blood of bulls and goats might take away sins, and Christ is dead in vain" (Hodge, Syst. Theol., 2:573-581; 3:188,189).

"God did not send Christ forever into Hell; but He put on Christ punishment that was equivalent for that. Although He did not give Christ to drink the actual Hell of believers, yet He gave Him a quid pro quo--something that was equivalent thereunto, He took the cup of Christ's agony, and He put in there, suffering, misery and anguish . . . that was the exact equivalent for all the suffering, all the eternal tortures of every one that shall at last stand in Heaven, bought with the blood of Christ" (Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 217).

"The penalty paid by Christ is strictly and literally equivalent to that which the sinner would have borne, although it is not identical. The vicarious bearing of it excludes the latter" (Shedd, Discourses and Essays, p. 307).

"Substitution excludes identity of suffering; it does not exclude equivalence"

I agree with the passages you quote.

 

[JonC]

jon



Then He freed us from unbelief and spiritual death. Thats why people He died for are regenerated and given the gift of Faith to believe, thats evidence Christ purchased them from sin and death.

He freed us from the powers of darkness (Col. 1), and from the bondage of sin (Rom. 6).

My point is that Scripture says Jesus died to free us from Satan (Heb. 2), but many seem to believe He freed us from divine judgment.

 

[Brightfame52]

He freed us from the powers of darkness (Col. 1), and from the bondage of sin (Rom. 6).

My point is that Scripture says Jesus died to free us from Satan (Heb. 2), but many seem to believe He freed us from divine judgment.

He freed from unbelief which is part of the power of sin. Men by nature are imprisoned in sin and unbelief/disobedience. See satan is the one who blinds us so we believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

But Jesus for His Sheep has destroyed the works of the devil, so the Sheep shall believe !

If anyone Christ died for dies in unbelief, Christs death was overcome by the power of the devil for that one, which is blasphemy !

 

[JonC]

He freed from unbelief which is part of the power of sin.

He freed us from the powers of darkness (Col. 1), and from the bondage of sin (Rom. 6).

My point is that Scripture says Jesus died to free us from Satan (Heb. 2), but many seem to believe He freed us from divine judgment.

It is true that in Christ we escape the wrath to come, but some have a hyper theology that forces them to replace Satan with God in the passages mentioned.

 

[Alan Gross]

I disagree.

The passage doesn't allow for the possibility of men being reconciled to God yet still in need of being reconciled to God.

It is a present ministry (the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God).

The idea that Christ died for our individual sins, ineffect forgiving those sins by suffering for them in stead of us suffering, as reconciliation is fairly new to Christianity.

Question - Are there actually any passages that say Christ's death paid the random price to God's justice?

Answer - No. In fact, that is a relatively recent interpretation of the Cross.

My point is that Scripture says Jesus died to free us from Satan (Heb. 2), but many seem to believe He freed us from divine judgment.

SIMMONS- THE DOCTRINE OF THE ATONEMENT

"Sometimes the opponents of the redeeming and ransoming nature of Christ's death ask whom the price was paid to.

And they rather sarcastically remind us that some have been quick to say that it was paid to the Devil.

No, it was not paid to the Devil. It was not paid to anybody as a commercial transaction.

The price is the penalty demanded by the justice of God.


We adopt, therefore, as the true view of the nature of the atonement, a view that combines the commercial theory and the ethical theory as they are described by Strong.

From the commercial theory we accept the idea expressed in 1 Tim. 2:6--the paying of a corresponding or equivalent price.

And from the ethical theory we accept the fact that it was not divine honor and majesty that demanded the atonement, as the commercial view asserts, but the ethical principles of holiness and justice in God.


"Between the most orthodox creed of atonement by proper, real, and full satisfaction of justice, and the frank and utter denial of atonement that offers any satisfaction to law, there is absolutely no logical standing ground."


"Scripture without hesitation and without explanation represents salvation by Christ as a transaction analogous to the payment of debt, the ransom of a captive, the redemption of a forfeited inheritance.

From the beginning to the end of the Bible there is no note of warning, no intimation that these comparisons may be misleading.

It is always assumed that they do plainly set forth Christ's work of redemption.


"The outcry against the theology that compares Christ's work to the payment of debt, the redemption of a forfeited inheritance, the outcry against the use of any one of the abounding scriptural allusions to financial transactions, is an outcry that betrays at once disregard for Scripture and a misconception of Christ's perfect work of redemption" (Armour, Atonement and Law, pp. 128,137).

 

[Brightfame52]

He freed us from the powers of darkness (Col. 1), and from the bondage of sin (Rom. 6).

My point is that Scripture says Jesus died to free us from Satan (Heb. 2), but many seem to believe He freed us from divine judgment.

It is true that in Christ we escape the wrath to come, but some have a hyper theology that forces them to replace Satan with God in the passages mentioned.

You dont seem to believe that He saved them He died for from unbelief. Unbelief is part of the power of darkness.

 

[JonC]

SIMMONS- THE DOCTRINE OF THE ATONEMENT

"Sometimes the opponents of the redeeming and ransoming nature of Christ's death ask whom the price was paid to.

And they rather sarcastically remind us that some have been quick to say that it was paid to the Devil.

No, it was not paid to the Devil. It was not paid to anybody as a commercial transaction.

The price is the penalty demanded by the justice of God.


We adopt, therefore, as the true view of the nature of the atonement, a view that combines the commercial theory and the ethical theory as they are described by Strong.

From the commercial theory we accept the idea expressed in 1 Tim. 2:6--the paying of a corresponding or equivalent price.

And from the ethical theory we accept the fact that it was not divine honor and majesty that demanded the atonement, as the commercial view asserts, but the ethical principles of holiness and justice in God.


"Between the most orthodox creed of atonement by proper, real, and full satisfaction of justice, and the frank and utter denial of atonement that offers any satisfaction to law, there is absolutely no logical standing ground."


"Scripture without hesitation and without explanation represents salvation by Christ as a transaction analogous to the payment of debt, the ransom of a captive, the redemption of a forfeited inheritance.

From the beginning to the end of the Bible there is no note of warning, no intimation that these comparisons may be misleading.

It is always assumed that they do plainly set forth Christ's work of redemption.


"The outcry against the theology that compares Christ's work to the payment of debt, the redemption of a forfeited inheritance, the outcry against the use of any one of the abounding scriptural allusions to financial transactions, is an outcry that betrays at once disregard for Scripture and a misconception of Christ's perfect work of redemption" (Armour, Atonement and Law, pp. 128,137).

The "paid to the Devil" was a Medieval misunderstanding of the ECF's (particularly Origen but others also personified sin and death in similar language).

Christ ransomed us. It is a flawed theology that suggests a ransom was paid to somebody (God or Satan). But it is a flawed theology that has gained ground over the past 7 centuries.