The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?7

[JonC]

You dont seem to believe that He saved them He died for from unbelief. Unbelief is part of the power of darkness.

Why would you think that? Nothing I said would remotely suggest that unbelief in God is anything but evil.

Unbelief is sin (it is active rebellion against God, against the revelation of God made known to all men).

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would you think that? Nothing I said would remotely suggest that unbelief in God is anything but evil.

Unbelief is sin (it is active rebellion against God, against the revelation of God made known to all men).

Well do you ? Do you believe Jesus death redeemed them He died for from unbelief ?

 

[JonC]

Well do you ? Do you believe Jesus death redeemed them He died for from unbelief ?

Your question is poorly defined and poorly stated.

I believe that Jesus redeemed man (as all Christians believed for the first millenia and a half....the "human family").

Unbelief is a sin, so of course that sin is forgiven man upon repentance.

When it comes to redemption, Scripture focuses on the price paid. When it comes to what we were freed from, Scripture says it is the powers of Satan.

You seem to think that Scripture is not enough, or that God's Word at least inadequacy reveals God's work of redemption.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your question is poorly defined and poorly stated.

I believe that Jesus redeemed man (as all Christians believed for the first millenia and a half....the "human family").

Unbelief is a sin, so of course that sin is forgiven man upon repentance.

When it comes to redemption, Scripture focuses on the price paid. When it comes to what we were freed from, Scripture says it is the powers of Satan.

You seem to think that Scripture is not enough, or that God's Word at least inadequacy reveals God's work of redemption.

Then evidently you dont believe that Christs death redeems one from unbelief if He died for him.

But it does, Christs death redeemed His People from all iniquity and purified them unto zealousness

Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[JonC]

Then evidently you dont believe that Christs death redeems one from unbelief if He died for him.

That is not a logical conclusion, particularly since I told you the exact opposite.

We are ransomed from the "powers of darkness", freed from the bondage of sin and death.

Like I said, this includes unbelief because unbelief is a sin (it is a rejection of God and what He has made known to us).

Are you a dishonest person or are you simply responding without reading my posts?

(I am seriously asking as I haven't interacted with you enough to form an opinion)

 

[DaveXR650]

Then evidently you dont believe that Christs death redeems one from unbelief if He died for him.

This is a limited atonement argument Owen used against Arminians. If Christ died for the sins of everyone, and unbelief is a sin, then no one can be punished for the sin of unbelief because Christ already paid the penalty for that.

I don't think that'll work on @JonC .

 

[Alan Gross]

https://www.pbcofdecaturalabama.org/pdf/Thoughts On The Atonement.pdf


Heavy Thoughts on The Atonement, as a reference.

 

[JonC]

This is a limited atonement argument Owen used against Arminians. If Christ died for the sins of everyone, and unbelief is a sin, then no one can be punished for the sin of unbelief because Christ already paid the penalty for that.

I don't think that'll work on @JonC .

Thank you for the reference. I had no clue what @Brightfame52 was trying to do (it seemed as of he wasn't reading what I wrote as I repeatedly said that in Christ we are forgiven our sins, including the sin of disbelieve).

I see how the argument could be used to argue against a moderate Calvinist (one that rejects limited atonement) and Arminianismas. But you are right, it won't work on me (it won't because the argument only works within the context of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement, which I do not hold).

Glad you were here - you know me well. Better the heretic you know, eh?

 

[DaveXR650]

Thank you for the reference. I had no clue what @Brightfame52 was trying to do (it seemed as of he wasn't reading what I wrote as I repeatedly said that in Christ we are forgiven our sins, including the sin of disbelieve).

I see how the argument could be used to argue against a moderate Calvinist (one that rejects limited atonement) and Arminianismas. But you are right, it won't work on me (it won't because the argument only works within the context of the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement, which I do not hold).

Glad you were here - you know me well. Better the heretic you know, eh?

I'm a big fan of Owen but I disagree with his take on atonement in the sense of the exactness of a payment for each sin is almost as if it were a commercial exchange. But I do believe in a penal substitution atonement. I'm a moderate Calvinist and most of the Calvinists on here hate my guts. But I saw what was going on and thought it was funny. I realized though that way earlier in this thread I had told Brightframe I'd get off so I will. I'll go make some popcorn.

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !3


So because His Blood alone paid the Redemptive Price, all for whom the Blood was shed for, must be as a matter of Justice be set free from, liberated fro, released from all the consequences of sin, which unbelief is one of those consequences, hence imprisoned in unbelief because of sin !

So Those Christ died for must be brought out of the Prison house of unbelief as an evidence that God has accepted His Blood as their Redemptive Price to free them from the prison of unbelief !

Thats why it is written Isa 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Notice here that it says " The Opening of the Prison to them that are bound" Thats speaking of the Prison of Unbelief, for remember we are by nature concluded to unbelief Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded means :


I.to shut up together, enclose

A.of a shoal of fishes in a net



II.to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.HCSB

The Redemptive Death of Christ opens up the Prison of unbelief.

The word opening is the word pĕqach-qowach and means I.opening (of eyes), wide

Thats opening the eyes of Faith, remember Paul said this Acts 26:18

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Faith in Christ is the result of the opening of the eyes !

Lets look at Isa 42:7

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Thats describing the giving of the Gift of Faith ! So these verses shows how there is an application of deliverance from the prison of unbelief, in the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus !

 

[Brightfame52]

That is not a logical conclusion, particularly since I told you the exact opposite.

We are ransomed from the "powers of darkness", freed from the bondage of sin and death.

Like I said, this includes unbelief because unbelief is a sin (it is a rejection of God and what He has made known to us).

Are you a dishonest person or are you simply responding without reading my posts?

(I am seriously asking as I haven't interacted with you enough to form an opinion)

It appears to me to be the logical and scriptural conclusion.

 

[JonC]

I'm a big fan of Owen but I disagree with his take on atonement in the sense of the exactness of a payment for each sin is almost as if it were a commercial exchange. But I do believe in a penal substitution atonement. I'm a moderate Calvinist and most of the Calvinists on here hate my guts. But I saw what was going on and thought it was funny. I realized though that way earlier in this thread I had told Brightframe I'd get off so I will. I'll go make some popcorn.

It seems that the most common view, here anyway, is an exactness of a payment for each sins. It is exactly as if it were an accounting transaction. And you are correct that is an error.

Sometime in the future I'd love to learn more about your position.

Anyway, enjoy your popcorn.

 

[JonC]

It appears to me to be the logical and scriptural conclusion.

I know that is how it appears to you.

Let's work it out:

ME - I say that disbelief is a rebellion against God, a sin. I say that Christ died for our sins, and in Him we are forgiven. I say we are forgiven the sin of disbelief.

YOU - Your conclusion is that I do not believe Christ's death redeems us from disbelief.


How do you reach your conclusion from my posts?


The answer, I suspect, is by taking my position out of context and assuming I share your view of Atonement minus its scope.

 

[Alan Gross]

Why would you think that? Nothing I said would remotely suggest that unbelief in God is anything but evil.

Are you a dishonest person or are you simply responding without reading my posts?

(I am seriously asking as I haven't interacted with you enough to form an opinion)

I am just not sure anyone can have an acceptable testimony of salvation that Brightfame52 will approve of, as his MO.

And I am not sure I would want to.

To say I am Atoned for, Justified, and already forgiven of my sins, when I'm lost, and then to have God Grant me Repentace for already being Atoned for, Justified, and forgiven of my sins(?) No thanks.


...

Im not finished with the thread. Its about the atonement of Christ and what it achieved. You talking about salvation by works, and have put down the achievement of Christs death, so we are finished.

And yes the poster does promote salvation by works, and so do you.

MartinM

Friend I find this to be an awful statement, borderline blasphemous. To utter the words that Christs death does no one any good unless they do something.

Folks one of the sure ways to determine who Jesus Christ died for, to know whether it was limited to only some of mankind, is to know that it [His Death] in the purpose of God must produce certain results, that being Life, Spiritual Life, this is true so much so, that if one does not experience New Life from from Christ by New Birth in this Life, to live by Faith, we can safely conclude that Christ never died for them, else we must admit that Christ's Death failed the purpose of God !

So did Christs death reconcile men to God or made it possible to be reconciled to God ?

The Ministry of reconciliation is to the already reconciled to God. The Ministry is used by God to give them faith in the already truth of being reconciled.

So its not me you disagree with but Apostolic Teaching friend.

jon c

Im afraid you do, but hey, we will see at Judgment day

I dont think you understand these matters at all friend. May God be merciful unto you !

You dont seem to believe that He saved them He died for from unbelief.

Then evidently you dont believe that Christs death redeems one from unbelief if He died for him.

 

[Brightfame52]

Redeems those He died for from the Prison of Unbelief !4

So the bringing out the prisoners from the prison [of unbelief] is deliverance out of unbelief, So faith or believing in Christ is the evidence that Christ's Redemptive Death worked, was effective, in redeeming from iniquity to include unbelief. We know that Christ's redemptive death worked for those He died for when they believe the Gospel of their Salvation, it means that His Death successfully redeemed them out of the Prison, and that their Spiritual eyes had been opened as per Acts 26:18

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

See when a sinner is in Unbelief they are evidencing being under the Power of satan !

Thats why, all the while we are in a lost state, the god of this world, satan has blinded our minds so that we believe not 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Thats why its antichrist to say that any of those Christ died for can yet die in their sins in unbelief as Per Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That is to say that ordained effects of Christ's Redemptive Death in the Purpose of God has been defeated by the devil and unbelief which contradicts Isa 42:7, because any and all in unbelief are spiritually in a prison Rom 11:32 ! Now ask yourself as I will ask myself, Did the Christ I believe in, that died for His People, deliver them from the Prison of Unbelief/disobedience ? If not, he is not the Christ of God !

 

[Brightfame52]

He giveth Life unto the World !

Jn 6:33

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

In other words the Life given from the bread of Heaven to the World In Jn 6:33 is the same as that given by the Last Adam of 1 Cor 15:45 and its based upon His Redeeming Death and Blood. When Jesus made the statement in Jn 6:33 it was based on His Finished work on behalf of that World He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25 the Church !

Note something here in Jn 6:33, this Life is absolutely given, bestowed, or communicated, or imparted, and is not something as is falsely implied, as merely offered, or made available, such who teach or imply that are nothing short of proud antichrists, but Christ is said to be specifically giving Life unto this World, Life out of Him Jn 1:4

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Life is Spiritual/Resurrection and Eternal Life, New Birth Life ! 31

 

[Salty]

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