Baptist beginings in Americia

[Salty]

Alan posted in another thread that the ABC did not start with Roger Williams
(see Baptist church perpetuity - in the Bapt History forum. Post # 3)

Williams founded a Baptist church in 1638 - since there was no Baptist organization
above the local church - there is no way for them to even claim they were ABC!

The Triennial convention first met 1814 to organize mission work.

In 1845, Baptists in the South broke off because the convention said slave owners
could not be missionaries.

The American Baptist Convention was founded in 1907

I found some interesting Baptist history here:
https://britannica.com/topic/baptists/history

I wanted to provide more links - but I am having trouble with my computer-

So, do you think there is an unbroken line of Baptist churches since the day of Pentecost?

Is Baptism valid ONLY if preformed by a Baptist pastor - and more specifically must that pastor
have been an unbroken line of baptisms since John the baptist?

In order to be a valid local Baptist church, must that church been founded under the authority of a "mother" Baptist church? ie If a group of Baptist simply decide to form a Baptist church - with no other church authority - is that a valid Baptist church. (and that included many churches founded due to church splits!)

Must a church have the name "Baptist" in it to be a valid "Baptist church??

AND PLEASE - KEEP YOU ANSWERS to 50-75 words !!!

 

[Baptist Believer]

So, do you think there is an unbroken line of Baptist churches since the day of Pentecost?

No.

However, there is an unbroken line of Christians in the Kingdom of God from Christ onward.

Is Baptistism valid ONLY if preformed by a Baptist pastor...

I'm assuming you are referring to baptism. The answer is no.

- and more specifically must that pastor have been an unbroken line of baptisms since John the baptist?

No, that's silly. Baptism is not a magic rite or priestly function.

In order to be a valid local Baptist church, must that church been founded under the authority of a "mother" Baptist church?

No. All these questions come from the viewpoint sometimes calls successionism, the idea that there is a priestly authority that is passed down through humankind instead of the priestly authority of Christ.

ie If a group of Baptist simply decide to form a Baptist church - with no other church authority - is that a valid Baptist church. (and that included many churches founded due to church splits!)

It is Baptist if it is aligned with the historic Baptist movement. There are many churches that have named themselves "Baptist" that really are not, and many churches that could rightly claim the name of Baptist that do not.

Must a church have the name "Baptist" in it to be a valid "Baptist church??

Nope.

 

[Alan Gross]

Baptist Perpetuity
From Ministry 127.com

Sir Isaac Newton:
The Baptists are the only known body of Christians that has not symbolized with the Church of Rome. - The First Church, by J. T. Mann.

Mosheim (Lutheran):
Before the rise of Luther and Calvin, there lay secreted in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of modern Dutch Baptists. - The Baptist Spirit, by Isaac J. Van Ness, William D. Nowlin.

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:
“Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers.” - Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, p. 112, 113.

The “twelve hundred years” were the years preceding the Reformation in which Rome persecuted Baptists with the most cruel persecution thinkable.

Edinburg Cyclopedia (Presbyterian):
“It must have already occurred to our readers that the Baptists are the same sect of Christians that were formerly described as Ana-Baptists. Indeed this seems to have been their leading principle from the time of Tertullian to the present time.” - The Trail of Blood, J. M. Carroll.

John Clark Ridpath (Methodist):
“I should not readily admit that there was a Baptist Church as far back as A. D. 100, though, without doubt, there were Baptists then, as all Christians were then Baptists.” - Cole C.D. Definitions of Doctrine, Volume III, “The New Testament Church.”

Professor Wm. C. Duncan, of the Department of Greek and Latin, University of Louisiana:
“Baptists do not, as most Protestant denominations, date their origin from the Reformation of 1520. By means of that great movement, they were brought out of comparative obscurity into prominent notice. They did not, however, originate with the Reformation; for long before Luther lived; yea, long before the Catholic Church itself was known, Baptist and Baptist churches flourished in Europe, Asia and Africa.” - Moser, M. L. Jr. Baptist Handbook for Church Members (Revised), Little Rock, Arkansas: Challenge Press, 1983, p. 46.

Zwingli, the Swiss reformer, contemporary with Luther and Calvin (1525):
“The institution of Anabaptism is no novelty but for thirteen hundred years has caused great disturbances in the church and has acquired such a strength that the attempt in this age to contend with it appeared futile for a while.” - Dayton, Amos Cooper. Pedobaptist and Campbellite Immersions. Southwestern Publishing House, 1858, p. 150. (By the “church” Zwingli means the Roman Catholic church.)

Robert Barclay (Quaker):
“We shall afterward show the rise of the Anabaptists took place prior to the Reformation of the Church of England, and there are also reasons for believing that on the Continent of Europe small hidden Christian societies, who have held many of the opinions of the Anabaptists, have existed from the times of the apostles.” –

Christian, John T.
History of the Baptists together with Some Account of Their Principles and Practices. Nashville, TN: Baptist Sunday School Committee of the American Baptist Association, 1922.

William C. King
“Of the Baptists it may be said that they are not Reformers. These people, comprising bodies of Christian believers, known under various names in different countries, are entirely independent of and distinct from the Greek and Roman churches, and have an unbroken continuity from apostolic days down through the centuries. Throughout this long period they were bitterly persecuted for heresy, driven from country to country, disfranchised, deprived of their property, imprisoned, tortured and slain by the thousands; yet they swerved not from the New Testament faith, doctrine and practice.” - Crossing the Centuries. Springfield, MA: Editorial Associates, 1912.
============

[From Ministry 127.com

 

[Alan Gross]

This is a Baptist Board. I thought I would share some Baptist Church Truth.
We should at least know as much as our enemies.

"Our enemies testify that our Lord has kept His promise and that Baptists can be traced through the centuries by a trail of blood.

"Joan Bocher, of Kent, Anne Askew, and hundreds of other Baptists were murdered for their principles in the sixteenth century before the Smyth affair. The following edict was put forth by the Council of St. Gall, March 26, 1530: "All who adhere to or favor the false sect of the Baptists, and who attend hedge meetings, shall suffer the most severe punishments. Baptist leaders, their followers and protectors, shall be drowned without mercy." (Bullinger, Reformations-ge-schichte, 11, 287: "A History of the Baptists," by J. T. Christian).

[p. 31]
"In 1819 the king of the Netherlands appointed Dr. Ypeij, Professor of Theology in Gronigen University, and J. J. Dermont, his chaplain, to write the history of the Dutch Reformed Church. The Baptists kept getting in their way when they made a statement concerning them, closing in these words: "We have now seen that the Baptist, who were formerly called 'Anabaptists,' and in later time Mennonites, were the original Waldenses, and who have long in the history of the church received the honor of that origin. On this account the Baptists may be considered as the only Christian community which has stood since the days of the apostles, and as a Christian society which has preserved pure the doctrines of the gospel through all ages." Did these men tell the truth? They were not Baptists.

"Alexander Campbell, in 1851, when he had been an ordained minister for forty years, and fifteen years before his death, said: "There is nothing more congenial to civil liberty than to enjoy an unrestrained, unembargoed liberty of exercising the conscience freely upon all subjects respecting religion. Hence it is that the Baptist denomination, in all ages and in all countries, has been, as a body, the constant asserters of the rights of man and liberty of conscience. They have often been persecuted by Pedobaptists; but they never politically persecuted though they have had it in their power." ("Christian Baptism," page 409.)"

 

[Alan Gross]

an unbroken line of Baptist churches since the day of Pentecost?

Do you think something called a church was started on Pentecost?

I see a church started in the Bible, but not on Pentecost.

No need to be concerned about the other questions, until this is settled, from the Bible.

Twenty Proofs That JESUS' New Testament Church Existed Prior to Pentecost

the ABC

ABC is irrelevant to the discussion.

Must a church have the name "Baptist" in it to be a valid "Baptist church??

That would be the FIRST RULE in studying the history of the kind of churches Jesus Built. The answer is, "no".

BAPTIST CHURCH PERPETUITY, from the Time of Christ, until He Comes Again.

Christians in the Kingdom of God

The poster does not distinguish the difference between the churches that Jesus Built and The Kingdom of God. That would be the doctrine of Rome.

The Distinction Between the Lord's New Testament Church and the Kingdom of GOD.

The Church That Jesus Built

there is a priestly authority that is passed down through humankind instead of the priestly authority of Christ.

I have never heard any claim close to this, in any way.

How I Became a "Narrower" Baptist, By Roy Mason, 1930

 

[Silverhair]

Alan posted in another thread that the ABC did not start with Roger Williams
(see Baptist church perpetuity - in the Bapt History forum. Post # 3)

Williams founded a Baptist church in 1638 - since there was no Baptist organization
above the local church - there is no way for them to even claim they were ABC!

The Triennial convention first met 1814 to organize mission work.

In 1845, Baptists in the South broke off because the convention said slave owners
could not be missionaries.

The American Baptist Convention was founded in 1907

I found some interesting Baptist history here:
https://britannica.com/topic/baptists/history

I wanted to provide more links - but I am having trouble with my computer-

So, do you think there is an unbroken line of Baptist churches since the day of Pentecost?

Is Baptism valid ONLY if preformed by a Baptist pastor - and more specifically must that pastor
have been an unbroken line of baptisms since John the baptist?

In order to be a valid local Baptist church, must that church been founded under the authority of a "mother" Baptist church? ie If a group of Baptist simply decide to form a Baptist church - with no other church authority - is that a valid Baptist church. (and that included many churches founded due to church splits!)

Must a church have the name "Baptist" in it to be a valid "Baptist church??

AND PLEASE - KEEP YOU ANSWERS to 50-75 words !!!

My wife would have a heart attack looking down, I would have one trying to climb those stairs. Nice view though.

 

[Alan Gross]

See what you can get from these references: https://www.pbcofdecaturalabama.org/pdf/TheGreatCommissionCredentials.pdf

The Myth Of The Universal Invisible Church EXPLODED (Section 6) by Roy Mason - Sovereign Grace Landmark Baptist Pastor

& From : III The New Testament Church

HE ORGANIZATION OF THE CHURCH

A. Its Members.

B. Its Officers.

C. Its Autonomy and Independence.

D. Its Perpetuity.

There is no account in the New Testament of any mode of procedure by which churches were organized. As an institution Christ founded the church while on earth, left it in care of the apostles and prophets with delegated authority. Before his return to the Father He gave the commission to the church through the apostles and promised His presence with them until the end of the age. He also promised to send the Holy Spirit as their helper in the task of perpetuating the church. The Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost and the book of Acts is an account of what was done from Pentecost until the imprisonment of Paul. The first organized church was at Jerusalem. This church was scattered through persecution, this led to missionary endeavour and the organizing of churches in Asia and Europe. The second church was at Antioch in Syria. From this church Paul and Barnabas went out as missionaries. Then we read of the churches in Galatia and other provinces of the Roman Empire.

It seems evident from the New Testament that Jesus gave no formal prescription for the organization of any church. For sometime after Pentecost the disciples of Christ had no thought of separating themselves from the religious life of Israel. Temple-worship was adhered to "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart" (Acts 2:46); "Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour" (Acts 3:1), being supplemented by the teaching of the apostles, and by fellowship in prayer and the breaking of bread "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts 2:42). Organization was of gradual development according to emerging needs as when deacons were selected to serve tables so that the spiritual leaders might give themselves to the ministry of prayer and the word. "Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word" (Acts 6:2-4).

Baptist churches come into being today somewhat after this manner. A group of believers* in a community wish to become a church.

The members* in conference will make this wish known to other churches*, and these churches send messengers to counsel them in accomplishing their desire.

For the sake of order and recognition these messengers will inquire into their belief, and if it is thought wise, the visitors endorse their articles of faith and recommend their constitution as an independent church.

These visiting brethren do not organize the church.

Since the church is to be self governing it must of necessity and logically be self constituted.

And so those* wishing to become a church enter into covenant to that effect; and another church is born.

The help from the outside is for the sake of order and fellowship and is not absolutely essential. (Note. See Introduction to this volume as to the belief of the Publisher and the organization of a new church.)

From the Book of Acts and church epistles and also from the pastoral epistles we learn all that we need to know about the organized church."

( Alan note: * these people need to have baptism by the Authority of a properly organized New Testament church, as close to a Baptistic "Succesionist" type as possible.

Our church is this, with this as our history/ founding.

Bryan Station Baptist Church is in northern Fayette County, on the outskirts of Lexington, Kentucky. Up the hill and just around the curve on Briar Hill Road is a church with a very rich history--we were organized in 1786.

From the early pioneer days to the present, Bryan Station has sought to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3).

We’re an independent, missionary, Baptist church that practices the two traditional ordinances of the church and holds to the Doctrines of Grace.

Bryan Station Baptist Church is a local, visible, called-out assembly of scripturally baptized believers, covenanted together according to the Biblical pattern of a “one member, one vote,” spirit-led democracy; whose purpose is the carrying out of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:16-20.

The Bible teaches that only such a church as this is authorized and constructed to be able to do so.

Our authority came, according to the Biblical doctrine of “church succession,” through particular New England “separate” Baptists who had sought out existing Baptist churches for this arm of authority.

Such were Elders Shubeal Sterns and Daniel Marshall who, once they were saved, sought out Baptist Baptism; Shubeal Sterns at the Baptist Church at Toland, Connecticut on May 20, 1751; and Daniel Marshall from Winsor, Connecticut, saved and burdened to preach, came to Winchester, Virginia where he became convinced of the soundness of Baptist doctrine and was immersed at the age of forty-eight.

After a few years each under sound ministry, and after becoming licensed to preach by their respective churches, they were found laboring in Virginia, North and South Carolina and Georgia.

They remained in Virginia only a short while “but the power of God was effectual in the conversion of Samuel Harris, a man of great distinction…” who at length became greatly used of the Lord.

“Sometime in 1766… Elijah Craig and two others came to this same Mr. Harris’s home in order to procure his services in Orange County, Va. and adjacent parts; to preach and baptize and organize new converts.

They found to their surprise that he himself at that time had not yet been ordained; but being more perfectly instructed in the way of the Lord he carried them about 60 miles into North Carolina to get James Read (who was ordained) (Robert B. Semple, “A History of the Rise and Progress of the Baptists in Virginia.”) and (John T. Christian, “A History of the Baptists,” pg. 215, vol. 2), even as Jesus traveled at least as far to receive baptism at the hands of a Baptists preacher (Mark 1:9-14).

From this beginning churches were established and ordination by them was begun (John T. Christian, pg. 216, vol.2), and a church was soon found at Spotsylvania, Va. – the Spotsylvania Baptist Church, pastored by Elder Lewis Craig.

And it is from this church, when it became the famous “Traveling Church” in September of 1781, when Lewis Craig led the whole church over the Cumberland Gap to settle in the blue grass region of Central Kentucky, that the authority for our Bryan Station Baptist Church came, organized in 1786.

We believe we are to take our history seriously. It is a glorious history. May the Lord grant we live up to it.

 

[Alan Gross]

So, do you think there is an unbroken line of Baptist churches since the day of Pentecost?

"The "Baptist problem" will not go away! Baptist Churches maintain that they have continually existed since the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ (not "Baptist" in name, perhaps, but in principle and connection).

Although it infuriates Catholics, Protestants, and quasi-Baptists alike, sound Baptists maintain that both the Bible and the true facts of history prove* that it is among them alone that the true Churches of Christ are to be found.

(*Alan note: "history" gives a strong indication, but not full "proof".
The proof is in believing Scripture.)

These New Testament Baptists maintain that they have ever been and continue to be separate from Catholicism and Protestantism. They point out that while religious historians have ample proof as to the origins of Catholicism and the Protestant schisms, all honest scholars must agree that no founding date for Baptist churches can be found this side the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ."

"For the one who believes the New Testament’ to be the inspired Word of God, the question, “Did Jesus found a Church?” is once for all answered in the affirmative by Matthew 16:19, in which Jesus Himself makes the statement, “I will build my church.”

from: First Pillar of the Law

"If Christ’s words in Matthew 16:18 mean anything at all, they must mean that the institution which He promised was one separate and distinct from any institution that had previously existed in the world, or existed at that time. It will presently be shown that the disciples were already thoroughly familiar with the word “ecclesia” or “church” and its meaning.

"But Jesus indicated very clearly that the institution which He proposed would be a new one, distinct and be distinguished from all other “ecclesias” by the fact that it was to be HIS church, built upon an entirely different foundation than any ecclesia in existence at that time."

..."First, let me ask did not they have all of the essential things that go to make up a church before Pentecost? Let us see:
1. They had the Gospel (Mark 1;1)
2. They were baptized believers. The apostles had been disciples of John, having been baptized by him (Acts 1:22). Of John’s baptism, we are told that it was from heaven (John 1:33).
3. They had an organization. They even had a treasurer, though he turned out to be a dishonest one.
4. They had the same head that the church of today has, Christ.
5. They had the ordinance of baptism.
6. They had the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper.
7. They had the Great Commission.
8. They met together as a church for prayer preceding Pentecost.
9. Moreover, they even had a business meeting and selected one to take Judas’"

https://www.pbcofdecaturalabama.org/pdf/TheGreatCommissionCredentials.pdf pg. 15

"and, lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the world. Amen” Thus far, we have seen that authority to carry out the Great Commission is given to “ye” and not to “them.”

We have also established the meaning of “make disciples” as both an event that began with the gospel as well as an ongoing process that continues with baptism and habitual assembling together in observing the commandments of the Lord.

We have seen that it was given to those who have been through this three-fold process rather than those who have not. We have seen it has been given to those who are like faith and order with Jesus Christ rather than those who are not. Last, we have seen it is given to those in a churched state rather than those who are not.

New Testament Church Succession pg 17

A. Organic Link to Link Contact:

Organic link-to-link contact cannot be successfully repudiated if we take the commission at face value. In fact, there is no other possible way that such a commission could be administered but by an organic link-to-link contact in time and space.

It is impossible for the Great Commission to be administered without direct “hands-on” contact ... the second and third aspects of the commission require actual physical contact between “ye” and “them” in carrying out this commission. Baptism was a physical “hands-on” connection... Furthermore, teaching “them” required actual assembling together with “them” over a period of time in order to accomplish the goal of “teaching them to observe all things….commanded.”

B. Natural Cycle of Succession: Does the third aspect of this commission command “them” to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded? Obviously! Does this include observing this commission as a New Testament Church? Who would deny that?

Notice that the very nature of this commission is a NATURAL CYCLE of reproduction after its own kind: “GO….baptizing….teaching” which demands them to “GO…..baptizing….teaching” which demands them to “GO…baptizing…teaching them…etc. etc. Like begets like.

pg. 18 C. Supernatural Promise of Day in and Day out Succession until the end of the Age: “and, lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the world. Amen.” Literally, the Greek says“all the days until the end of the age.”Greek scholars say this is an idiom that means “day in and day out” until the end of the age (William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, Matthew, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, Mich. p. 1003).

Christ is promising His day-in and day-out presence until the end of the world for the very purpose of carrying out this kind of successive historical link by link organic cycle of like faith and order. (Like faith and order begets like faith and order.

The gates of hell shall never prevail against His church simply because He remains with it providentially making sure that this“ye” continues“day in and day out” reproducing like faith and order until the end of the world. This is why Jude says the faith was“ONCE delivered”–Jude 3.

This means that the KIND of churches found in the New Testament not only continued to reproduce after their own kind in the apostolic age but did so also after the apostolic age into every generation up to the present generation.

To deny this is to demand that Christ lied and in addition to lying, He failed to be with them“always, even unto the end of the age.”

To deny this is to claim the gates of hell did prevail against His church. To deny this is to edit from the commission the prequalified “ye” at some point in time between the apostolic age and the present and demand that “them” is authorized to self-administer this commission in order to restart it.

No one has the authority to edit the “ye” from this commission at ANY TIME.

If this “ye” at some point in history ceased to exist, died out, then this leaves only one option: God had to violate His own Word and directly authorize those identified as “them” to resume the Great Commission.

However, the promise of AGE LONG CONTINUITY found in the Great Commission denies that possibility altogether, as the object of this promise is the prequalified “ye” rather than the unqualified “them” found in the Great Commission. To say that it did cease to exist is to say that Christ did not keep His promise to His kind of church.

Therefore, it is impossible to deny organic link to link church succession without editing out and denying what Matthew 28:19-20 clearly states and promises.

pg 15 ...the text demands they are an AGE LONG existing “ye”.

Christ promises that He will be with this “you” until the end of the age.

If this “you” is considered as individuals, most died before the end of that century, much less the end of the world.

Christ could not have given this commission to them as individuals.

Christ could only have given them this as representatives of something that could and would continue until the end of the age.

His KIND of CHURCH ORGANIZATION.

 

[Alan Gross]

Is Baptism valid ONLY if performed by a Baptist pastor - and more specifically must that pastor
have been an unbroken line of baptisms since John the baptist?

The Authority to baptize is in His KIND of CHURCH ORGANIZATION.

pg. 16 Thus “you” must be representative of saved, baptized, churched disciples of like faith and order with Christ. Therefore, the inherent characteristics of this “ye” leave only two possible options as to their age-long identity.

Either Christ is giving the commission to the New Testament church to be administered by its ordained members or He is addressing only the ordained members within the New Testament Church.

Is He giving it to His church, or to the ordained elders?

Many believe He gave the commission to the ordained class within the churches of Christ. To support this position, they argue that only the ordained class is capable of performing all three aspects of this commission; whereas the ordinary church member is not, and if given to the church it would authorize women and children as well to administer it.

They argue that in the book of Acts in every case of baptism, it is performed by the ordained membership and silent passages cannot be used to contradict this conclusion. All of these things are true.

However, we believe that the same evidence supports the conclusion that the Great Commission was given to the church to be administered by its ordained membership.

Indeed, the overall Biblical evidence demands this conclusion. For example, we can find explicit cases where the church is the one sending out its ordained membership to carry out this commission (Acts 11:22; 13:1-3; 15:1-3); and the one sending is superior in authority to the one being sent.

We can find an explicit and clear command of Christ that appoints the church as the final authority in kingdom affairs when he instructs individual church members to“tell it to the church” rather than to its ordained membership.

We can find scriptures that indicate it is the church that chooses and determines the qualifications of those to be set apart to be ordained (Acts 6:5).

Don’t those who select and choose always have greater authority than those being examined and chosen?

We can find scriptures where such ordained men are “set in”the church and are said to be“gifts”for the church and thus are subservient in the final analysis to the Church (Eph. 4:11; I Cor. 12:28).

However, most importantly, we can find no scriptures that promise age-long continuance to the ordained ministry per se, but we do find scriptures that promise age-long continuance to the church (Mt. 16:18; Eph. 3:21) in perfect harmony with the age-long promise in Matthew 28:20.

"he that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES”- Rev. 2-3)

see pg. 75; Appendix #1 - Church Authority or Ministerial Authority?

In order to be a valid local Baptist church, must that church be founded under the authority of a "mother" Baptist church? ie If a group of Baptists simply decide to form a Baptist church - with no other church authority - is that a valid Baptist church? (and that included many churches founded due to church splits!)

Yes, you need a "mother church". with Authority.

"CHURCH EXTENDED"

"Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations" (Matt. 28:19)

"The Bible offers a proper way for extending the church of the Lord Jesus Christ to spread throughout the world with her influence and her Gospel. This in modern times is called the "mother church" method. You will not find this phrase in the Scriptures, but the principle is definitely presented by example especially in the book of Acts.

Institutional Authority - A Biblical Principle

Please refer to Deuteronomy chapter 12. This chapter shows an ancient principle that was practiced by Israel from the commandment of God. Notice especially these verses:

Verse 5: But unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come.

Verse 8: Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

Verse 13: Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest.

This same authority is found in the New Testament beginning with the preaching of John the Baptist and continuing throughout what is commonly called the church age. John was a man "sent from God" (John 1:33). John did not just begin a ministry of his own, but he had God's direct authority.

This authority continues to our present age. The authority of John was given to the church by Christ in Matt. 28:18-20:

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power [authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus And The Apostles Had John's Baptism

Neither Jesus nor any of the apostles did anything regarding the church until they were baptized by John, so John's baptism carried a very powerful authority. Even the Pharisees demanded to know by what authority Christ did the things that he did (See Matt. 21:23). Jesus answered the Pharisees with a question: The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? (Matt. 21:25). The Pharisees could not tell Jesus from where the authority of John came. That is because they refused to recognize Heaven's authority (See Luke 7:29-30).

From One Church To Another:
The Biblical Pattern

The church at Jerusalem was the first church in existence. When it was found that there were believers in Samaria through Philip's preaching, the church at Jerusalem sent Peter and John; and they laid their hands on the Samaritans, and they received the demonstration of the Holy Spirit [authority] just as the believers in Jerusalem had received. This receiving of the Holy Spirit was God's institutional sanction. This was necessary because the Samaritans thought that God's authority was already upon them (See John 4:20).

When Saul of Tarsus was saved he was taken to Damascus. [See Acts 9:1-19] A man by the name of Ananias, who evidently was affiliated with the church at Jerusalem (see verse 13), [2] was sent (verse 17) to Saul that he might pray for him and that he might receive his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. So, even Paul's ministry was sanctioned by the church at Jerusalem. He was not an authority of himself.

When Paul and Silas were to begin their first missionary journey, they were sent out by the church at Antioch; and when they returned from their missionary journey, they reported to the church at Antioch. That is because they were not a ministry unto themselves, but their ministry was through the local church. Paul teaches us in Eph. 3:21 that God receives glory only through the church.

So down through the ages a continual line of authoritative baptisms has existed even unto our day.

If a person, then, begins a ministry without the express authority of an existing church of the Lord Jesus Christ, then he is a ministry to himself and has divided the church of the Lord and caused a schism, which the Lord hates. He has become a "denomination" of his own, and his ministry is not approved of God. He has taken authority unto himself despite the pattern that God has laid down in Scripture over and over.

May God bless us as we spread the Gospel by way of the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ. He promised that no matter how long the world stands the gates of Hell will not prevail against the church of the Lord. So the authority of God continues throughout history form the time of Christ. Every spiritual worker should be very careful to be sure that this authority is taken with responsibility in order not to usurp the authority of Christ's churches. (Eph. 3:21)"

 

[Baptist Believer]

The poster does not distinguish the difference between the churches that Jesus Built and The Kingdom of God. That would be the doctrine of Rome.

No. You've jumped to a false conclusion based on your assumption that I share your mistaken successionist viewpoint.

I'm simply pointing out that true disciples of Jesus have existed in an unbroken fashion since the time Christ walked the earth, even if the predominant institutions did not always reflect good theology and practice. The power and authority of the gospel and the church comes directly from Jesus, not mediated through ordination passed on from The Twelve. That's Roman Catholic theology.

"Joan Bocher, of Kent, Anne Askew, and hundreds of other Baptists were murdered for their principles in the sixteenth century before the Smyth affair. The following edict was put forth by the Council of St. Gall, March 26, 1530: "All who adhere to or favor the false sect of the Baptists, and who attend hedge meetings, shall suffer the most severe punishments. Baptist leaders, their followers and protectors, shall be drowned without mercy." (Bullinger, Reformations-ge-schichte, 11, 287: "A History of the Baptists," by J. T. Christian).

It's interesting to me that those advocating successionism (based on the claim of an unbroken succession of churches of like faith and order) happily embrace Anabaptists. While historically, Anabaptists are truly forbearers of modern Baptists, both Joan Bocher (aka, Joan of Kent) and Anne Askew (my 9th great-grandmother) were female preachers. It seems today that most successionist Baptists have strayed from the "old paths" they claim to keep.

 

[Salty]

Joan Bocher - Wikipedia

 

[Alan Gross]

The power and authority of the gospel and the church comes directly from Jesus

Cetainly.

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

ordination passed on from The Twelve

This is what I believe Jesus did when He Commissioned the Disciples, Assembled as an Organized, Divinely Constructed, and Founded Entity, or Organization, that Jesus called, "My church"

and promised her (Jesus' Organization) a continual existence, again, as an Organized, Divinely Constructed, and Founded Entity, or Organization, that Jesus called, "My church"

And since those Disciples all eventually died, I don't believe it was given to them or anyone else, as individuals.

Not on your life.

The Great Commission is not Divinely Designed to be left to individuals to carry out(?)

"Make Disciples (preach them repentance and faith, to get folks saved), Baptise them, and teach them all things I have Commanded you."

What individuals can have had "all things I have Commanded you" revealed to them?

The false religions of the world started by men are a searing testimony against this idea.

Joan Bocher (aka, Joan of Kent) and Anne Askew (my 9th great-grandmother) were female preachers.

I go to Public School, as The Good News Club, and preach the Gospel, along with young and older women and a woman on a walker, who do much of the preaching.

Joan Bocher - Wikipedia

Joan Bocher was an English Anabaptist burned at the stake for heresy( for exactly what I believe and the others, in the Succession I am claiming, i.e., Jesus as Savior, by Grace alone, believer's baptism, baptism by immersion, etc., etc.)

She was associated with Anabaptists in Kent, some of them immigrants who had fled persecution for exactly what I believe.

And was said "the comment that burning was "sufficiently mild" for a crime as grave as heresy."

Congratulations, on Anne Askew (my 9th great-grandmother).

A supernaturally blessed Heritage.

Anne Askew - Wikipedia

Anne Askew "was an English writer, poet, and Anabaptist preacher who was condemned as a heretic..."

"Due of the torture she had endured, she had to be carried to the stake on a chair. She was burned to death along with three others"

and plenty more:

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Foxes Book of Martyrs.pdf

I am one of The Children of The Flame. (another video)

This video below is well worth the 1 hour 35 min., of pure God Blessed Blessing.

It seems today that most successionist Baptists have strayed from the "old paths" they claim to keep.

Are you saying Joan Bocher (aka, Joan of Kent) and Anne Askew (my 9th great-grandmother) were Ordained Ministers that preached in the pulpit?

 

[Alan Gross]

happily embrace Anabaptists.

WE ARE ANABAPTISTS ON BAPTISM

Our people contend that there are five things essential to Bible baptism.

First, there must be Divine authority as given to Baptist churches (Matthew 28:19-20).

Second, there must be a Scriptural administrator, an ordained Baptist minister (Acts 13:1-3; I Corinthians 1:16).

Third, there must be a Scriptural actor, a born-again believer in Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31-33).

Fourth, there must be a Scriptural action, a complete immersion in water (Romans 6:4).

Fifth, there must be a Scriptural aim, not in order to be saved, but because you seek to declare salvation already obtained by faith in Christ (Galatians 3:26-27).


"Our people totally reject pedobaptism.

We do not receive alien immersion from Pedo-Baptists or apostate Baptists.

Neither do we receive letters from Pedo-Baptists or so-called Baptists who have denied the faith.

Because of this practice, our people have been dubbed by our enemies for over a thousand years “Anabaptists;” that is, “rebaptizers.”

And, "Heretics", and tortured and killed, by the millions.

the "old paths"

WHO WE ARE NOT

"At times our friends make false assumptions about us, and our enemies misrepresent our views before the world. Because we believe in the doctrines of grace we are accused of being Reformed Baptists.

We are not Reformed Baptists. We repudiate the idea of Baptist churches beginning at the time of the Protestant Reformation in 1641.

We maintain that Baptists are older than the Reformation.

We feel that our origin goes back to Christ and the New Testament.

We believe we are as old as the Christian religion. Christ’s church does not need reforming so long as it stays with the teaching of the Bible.

We differ with these people on ecclesiology and eschatology.


We are not Primitive or Old School Baptists.

These people separated from the old line of Baptists under Daniel Parker in 1832. Unlike us, they are in the main anti-missionary and oppose Christian education.

Unlike us, many of them do not know if they are saved, and some of them deny Baptist succession."

TheKindOfBaptistWeAre

 

[Salty]

First, there must be Divine authority as given to Baptist churches (Matthew 28:19-20).

Are you saying that a non-Baptist church is not able to Scripturaly baptize?
Does that include Bible churches and other evangelical churches?

You mentioned an ordained Baptist ministers - must be the baptizers -
I do not see that command in the 2 verses that you gave.

 

[Alan Gross]

Second, there must be a Scriptural administrator, an ordained Baptist minister (Acts 13:1-3; I Corinthians 1:16).

You mentioned an ordained Baptist ministers - must be the baptizers

Acts 13:1-3: Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work where unto I have called them.

3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."

As there is so much in Acts, the remaining books, and Revelation, I see, "in the church", which we say is only a local assembly.

But I would have to guess that Br. Cockrell was seeing at Antioch certain prophets and teachers as being ordained and "As they ministered to the Lord" and "the work whereunto I have called them", to include being sent to, "make disciples, and baptize them", which they would be doing, sent out by The Holy Spirit with church authority to baptize, AND also as ordained ministers.

Which is a stretch.

That's all I've got, which is what? To God's people that make up a church body?

Do they, or a preacher, have The Book on it?

I don't see it either.

It is up to each individual local church body to self-govern themselves, under the leading of the Holy Spirit as to whether ordained Baptist ministers - must be the baptizers."

What if the Ordained Pastor is very elderly and unable to perform the dunking and he is the only one in that congregation Ordained?

I always have heard of four essential requirements for Scriptural Baptism.

The right candidate (because they are saved, by Jesus' Death, Burial, and Ressurection), in the right way (Immersion), for the right reason (to picture the Lord's Death, Burial, and Ressurection, i.e., not to save, etc.), under the right authority (as The Lord Commands His followers, in the capacity of a properly structured Institution like the ones in The New Testament that He Founded and Organized and told to, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19.

I personally don't see, "ordained Baptist ministers - must be the baptizers", in The Book, as you said.

I BET it goes back to The Old Testament, as to what level of being "Ordained", like a Preist, etc., God requires to PERFORM religious rites.


I Corinthians 1:16: "And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Paul was, Biblically, sent out, under church authority (as The Lord Commands His followers, in the capacity of a properly structured Institution like the ones in The New Testament that He Founded and Organized and told to, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19.

So, he had the authority to baptize and did, but I don't see it in these verses, either, and so whether it is seen as essential would be left up to each congregation, independently.

I do not see that command in the 2 verses that you gave

Right.

"The question of the authority possessed by the Church has been a cause of many rifts in Baptist fellowship leading to differences of opinion concerning the administrator in Baptism, "Open" and "Close" Communion, Alien Immersion, Ordination, Creeds or Declarations of Faith, the power of Associations and Conventions, and even the question of Baptist Succession."

There are plenty more thoughtful issues treated in the book I just quoted: The Problem of Baptist Succession - Baptist Because

Like:


AN OUTLINE

INTRODUCTION

I. A DEFINITION OF TERMS.

A. Baptist.
B. Succession, Continuity, Perpetuity.
C. Apostolic Succession.
D. Baptist Succession.

II. A MAJOR QUESTION AMONG BAPTISTS.

A. Baptists Are Not Agreed Among Themselves Concerning Their Origin And Continuity.

B. The Various Schools Of Thought Among Baptists Concerning Baptist Succession, Continuity, Or Perpetuity.

The Succession-Continuity-Perpetuity View.
The Spiritual Kinship View.
The English Separatist View.
C. Problems Which Complicate The Problem.
How Many And What Baptist Principles Must A People Possess In Order To Entitle Them To Be Called Baptists?
How Far May A Church Depart From The New Testament Pattern Before It Ceases To Be A New Testament Church?
Conflicting Views Among Baptists Over The Nature And Authority Of The Church.
Conflicting Views Among Baptists Over The Nature And Distinction Of The Church And The Kingdom Of God.
A Scarcity Of Documentary Evidence And Conflicts Over The Nature And Source Of That Is Available.
III. A COMPARATIVE AND CRITICAL STUDY OF THE VARIOUS VIEWS ON BAPTIST SUCCESSION, CONTINUITY, OR PERPETUITY.

A. Elements Of Strength And Weakness In Each View:

The Succession-Continuity-Perpetuity View.
The Spiritual Kinship View.
The English Separatist View.


B. A Brief Pro And Con Study Of The Sects, Parties, And Movements Up To The Seventeenth Century Who Held Principles In Common With Modern Baptists.

The Montanists
The Novatians
The Donatists
The Paulicians
The Albigenses
The Petrobrussians, Henricians
The Waldensians
The Anabaptists


C. A Conclusion Which May Not Conclude The Matter.

 

[Alan Gross]

Are you saying that a non-Baptist church is not able to Scripturally baptize?

Authority in the Baptism

A Matter of Doctrine

We are told in Acts 19:1-4 something of baptism without authority. At Ephesus Paul found about a dozen disciples who claimed to have John's baptism. Probably they had been dipped by Apollos, who later learned ". . . the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:24-28), but this point is irrelevant. The Bible does not say that these men had John's baptism.

The Bible says that "they said, Unto John's baptism." That is, they claimed to have, perhaps they really believed they had, John's baptism.




Attempts to distinguish between John's baptism and later Christian baptism attempts to make the doctrine of John the Baptist and of the apostle Peter different from the doctrine of Paul - such attempts are mere hogwash.

When these disciples showed their ignorance of New Testament doctrine while claiming the baptism of John, Paul immediately summarized the teaching of John as identical to that of all true New Testament teachers, "saying unto the people, that they should believe . . . on Christ Jesus."


"The point is that New Testament doctrine must accompany New Testament baptism. Only so do we have the baptism of our text, "through the faith of the energy of the God that raised him (Christ) from the dead." So instructed, the disciples at Ephesus "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" that is, under His authority through an official minister of His church.


"It is always so. Where Christ is honored, His word is believed, and His body is respected. The authorized administrator of the baptism that pictures His gospel is the church that He instituted and that He promised to be with to the end of the age. This is the only kind of church that believes and obeys His word and so can teach other disciples to obey Him."

Does that include Bible churches and other evangelical churches?

This is What We Believe, in our church.

Do they compare?

Are they willing or an informed candidate to be "Re"-Baptized?

...according to the Biblical doctrine of “church succession?"

I believe “church succession" is a Bible and Baptist Doctrine.

The question of "Scriptural Baptism" goes there.

The question, "Are you saying that a non-Baptist church is not able to Scripturally baptize?", then, goes to the individual, to study it out for themselves, before God as to what they should do.

"Bryan Station Baptist Church is a local, visible, called-out assembly of scripturally baptized believers, covenanted together according to the Biblical pattern of a “one member, one vote,” spirit-led democracy; whose purpose is the carrying out of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:16-20. The Bible teaches that only such a church as this is authorized and constructed to be able to do so.

"Our authority came, according to the Biblical doctrine of “church succession,” through particular New England “separate” Baptists who had sought out existing Baptist churches for this arm of authority."


What Is An Independent Baptist Church?

An independent Baptist Church believes that the only organization given in the New Testament is the local church. They believe that God has given the church as the means of accomplishing His purpose in this age.

An independent Baptist Church, therefore, does not affiliate or identify themselves with any organized Convention, Association or Fellowship.

An independent Baptist Church sends forth its missionaries by the authority of the church and not through an unscriptural Mission Board. These missionaries are supported directly by the churches.

An independent Baptist Church cooperates with other Baptist Churches in missions, schools, etc. but does so on a voluntary basis and without any unscriptural organization binding the churches together.

An independent Baptist Church refuses to compromise the historical Baptist doctrines for the sake of popular appeal.

An independent Baptist Church has to rely upon God and give Him all the glory.

True Baptists love the church that Jesus loved and will not have this love and loyalty switched to some man-made organization.

An independent Baptist Church is not dictated to nor influenced by any head or headquarters except Jesus Christ.

Why is it important that every Bible-believing Baptist join an independent Baptist Church?

Other Kinds of Churches

"We, then do not hate other denominations when we refuse to accept their members into our churches upon their baptism. We love them and their souls. We simply are convinced of God that their baptism does not meet the requirements of the Word of God. Consider this with an honest mind."
con't

 

[Alan Gross]

"THE SCRIPTURAL ADMINISTRATOR OF BAPTISM

Who is to authorize the believer's baptism? This question reverts back to the question to whom or to what was the commission given? It was given to something, an institution that would be perpetuated until the end of the age. It was spoken to the apostles, not as individuals but as representatives of the church. And so the church is to make disciples, baptize disciples, and teach disciples what God has commanded to be observed or practiced. The believer must be received by the church; he unites with and his baptism must be authorized by the same church.

Only a church of Christ--a Scriptural church can execute the commission to baptize. And so every group of Christians must prove itself to be a Scripturally constituted church before it can Scripturally execute Christ's command.

Until the time of the reformation beginning with Luther, there were widely scattered churches, each a little democracy in contrast to the Roman hierarchy with a human head. These scattered churches were called Anabaptists because they insisted on baptizing all who came to them from the Roman hierarchy. The name Anabaptists was applied to them because they were charged with rebaptizing those who came to them from Rome. They rejected the name and claimed that those they baptized had never been baptized.

The early conflict was not over the mode of baptism because the Roman Catholic hierarchy immersed for several centuries. The issue was over the authority to baptize. None but a Scriptural Church has authority to baptize, for the command to baptize was given to the church that would be in existence from the days of Christ to the end of the age. The strongest argument that Baptist Churches represent the institution to whom the commission was given is the witness or testimony of those who are not Baptists.

"Mosheim, the Lutheran historian writes: "The true origin of that sect which acquired the name of Anabaptists, by their administering anew the rite of baptism to those who came over to their communion, is hid in the remote depths of antiquity, and is, consequently, extremely difficult to be ascertained." The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge has his to say: "The Baptist's, who were formerly called Anabaptists, and in later times Mednonnites, were the original Waldenses, and have long in the history of the church received the honor of that origin." On this account, the Baptists may be considered the only Christian community which has stood since the apostle's, and which has preserved pure the doctrines of the gospel through all the ages."

..."So in our search, we must eliminate every so-called church whose origin may be dated after the time of Christ. If in this process we eliminate every church save one, we shall be forced to the conclusion that that one is the true church.

"Going back to the much-discussed Matthew 16:18, we find two historical tests defined by Jesus---tests that should help and guide us in our investigation. The first is that the only true church was founded by JESUS HIMSELF -" I will build my church." The second is that the institution which Jesus called "My church" shall never cease to exist through the ages---"The gates of hades shall not prevail against it. "

"If in applying these two scriptural, historical tests we find that none of the organizations calling themselves churches, save one, can meet these tests, I must reiterate, we must conclude that one is the true church of Christ.

"Let us then inquire into the origin of the various denominations that exist today In this inquiry we shall concern ourselves only with the origin of the main denominations: those that are well-known and typical of all others.

"The denominations that we shall consider are those from which the many small sects have sprung in more recent years. Being the offspring of the older denominations and having their rise in very recent times, they of course fall so far short of meeting Christ's historical test that it would be entirely superfluous to deal with them."

All the major Christain Denominations are discussed in Chapter 6, above, of https://harmony-mbc.com/wp-content/...rticles/The-Church-that-Jesus-Built-Mason.pdf,

to eliminate them as having The Authority of God to operate, from the standpoint of when they originated and by whom, but that is not what you asked.

Chapter 7 discusses essential Doctrines.

"One of the things that very forcibly strikes us when we read about the New Testament churches is that they were composed of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN REGENERATED AND BORN AGAIN. The doctrine of regenerated church membership is on the pages of the New Testament so clearly that none can mistake it."

"And inseparable from the doctrine of a regenerate church membership we may mention incidentally that the New Testament churches practiced only BELIEVER'S BAPTISM. A profession of faith in Christ was necessary before baptism was administered. In Acts 2:41 we read, "Then they that gladly received His word were baptized." Note that "receiving His word" preceded baptism."

"Another thing that stands out in the New Testament as regards the churches of that time is the WAY OF SALVATION as taught by them. The apostolic churches held that salvation was by grace, through faith in Christ alone. As proof of this I submit Paul's well-known words found in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast."

"The Lord's Supper, being a church ordinance, was restricted to church members. This being the case, it was of course preceded by immersion."

"Further, we find that the apostolic churches were DEMOCRATIC IN THEIR FORM OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT. This means, of course, that they recognized the absolute lordship of Christ, and had no human head or master. "One is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren" (Matt. 23 :8-1 0) is the New Testament teaching."

"Another thing that is to be clearly gathered from the New Testament concerning the churches of that day is that they WERE ENTIRELY FREE FROM COERCION. In other words - they believed in religious liberty. Religion was a purely voluntary matter. They were deeply impressed with their duty to preach, teach and persuade, but their work ended there. As to whether or not the individual accepted the gospel and was affiliated with the church, was a matter to be decided by the individual himself apart from all coercive measures of any kind. There was entire separation of church and state."

"Another characteristic of the churches of Christ in apostolic times was their REVERENCE FOR THE SCRIPTURES AND THE COMMANDS OF THE LORD GIVEN TO THEM THROUGH INSPIRED MEN. To them the Word of God, whether contained in the Old Testament or delivered through the mouth or by pen of inspired men, was sufficient."

"Here again we distinguish the likeness between the Baptist churches of today and the churches of the early times. To Baptists, the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament constitute the final authority on all matters of belief and practice. The great doctrine that constitutes the bedrock upon which all of their other doctrines are laid is this: "The Bible, the Bible alone, is our only and all-sufficient rule of faith and practice. As one has aptly put it, "if you can't find it in the Bible it isn't Baptist doctrine; if it is Baptist doctrine you can find it in the Bible."

"There is yet another thing that was considered fundamental among, New Testament churches, and that was what has been termed, THE COMPETENCY OF THE SOUL, UNDER GOD, IN RELIGION." "Every one of us shall give an account of himself to God," is the teaching of Paul. Every soul was deemed competent to deal with God without the interference of human priests or mediaries".

We are not going to go with "Reformed Baptists", as far as church authority to Baptize, because they are of Catholic origin, or "Universal Church" advocates, or even "Elder Lead", or convention/ association churches, if and when it is seen they do not recognize Christ as their head.

see: The Myth Of The Universal Invisible Church EXPLODED (Section1) by Roy Mason - Sovereign Grace Landmark Baptist Pastor

 

[Salty]

so is that yes or no

 

[Alan Gross]

so is that yes or no

Most could not be expected to be practicing " all things that I command you", from the standpoint of Divine Providence, or they would already know their Bible and be a sound Baptist.

I say that, but that isn't how God Designed for people to know His Truth, or more of the billions of religious people around the world would be privy to, "How God Saves Souls", to mention one thing.

If a body of believers is shying away from the name "Baptist" there is usually a reason for it.

If it is because of an Elijah Craig type incident that is so rare it gets broadcast to high Heaven, that is unfortunate, because boozing it up is not a Baptist position.

So, no, until we do what the Bible says, "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly." Acts 18:26.

Maybe, yes, however.

When one asks The Lord if their worship is acceptable to Him, the Old Testament was pretty detailed on His methods by which to worship Him.

Today, it is not, "where two are more are gathered together", since the context of that chapter is on "church discipline".

"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

Unless some loan wolf fell for the universal church invention that took Satan 1500 years to sell, then forget telling anything.

Then, in verse 20 it says, "For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

Get it?

"in My name", indicating more than just a casual get together, in the context and the awareness of Church Truth.

It's all over the New Testament.

Starting with the group Jesus Commissioned, as being assembled as His Divinely instituted church assembly and not them "Commissioned" as individuals, nor anyone else.