Can You Come to Christ on Your Own Part II

[DaveXR650]

Next they tent to suggest that the 5 points Commonly called Doctrines of Grace will dull one’s passion for sharing the gospel. This view is mistaken in both its understanding of Calvinism & evangelism.

My answer to that would be William Carey, Charles Spurgeon, and Horatius Bonar (Words to Winners of Souls). Of course some Calvinistic churches do not evangelize but I have personally been "soul winning" with some fundamental pastors whose techniques for "getting a decision" truly horrified me, and I don't scare real easy.

 

[DaveXR650]

I don't see anywhere that one initiates his own "coming to Christ." It isn’t possible. Christ came to us, first from heaven, then back from the grave. Next (by those sent) through preaching, including the written word, where the Holy Spirit actively works to bring us to Christ. Without that, one wouldn’t even know to come to Christ.

I agree with that just the way you stated it. When I carefully read what Owen, a high-Calvinist said, even though he had a high view of God's sovereignty and flat out said that faith is not your own but that it is implanted or "wrought" in you by the Holy Spirit - even he said that the Holy Spirit works through a persons reason and normal mental faculties and will. That is why I have no problem with an individual who in their view, simply decided to come to Christ. In reality, that's what you did. The Bible is pretty clear though that you decided to come because of a work of the Spirit in you.

Now here is what a free will person needs to ask themselves. Why do I insist that I came on my own? If it is simply the most apparent and obvious quick analysis of what happened then fine. But they should look for any sign of pride or thinking that they contribute anything towards their salvation in coming. If that is there it IS a problem. But you do not have to be a Calvinist and the way you described it above seems good to me.

 

[DaveXR650]

That as I see it is the major problem with the Calvinist view, you do not think you have any responsibility to do anything. If you praise God or if you sin it is because God caused it for some reason that only He knows. It starts with your salvation as you did not trust in Christ Jesus, God gave you faith after you were saved. Bottom line is that for the Calvinist it is not the death and resurrection of Christ that you are trusting in but rather your election before the foundation of the world. Dave I do not want to sound harsh but this seems to be a continuing line of thinking that I see coming from Calvinists.

Well @Silverhair , what gets me in trouble on here with a lot of Calvinists is I honestly think that after looking into Calvinist theology as much as you are inclined to do, if you decide it does not explain what you have observed in scripture or what other trusted Christians have told you then I would say reject it. I think it does a good job honoring God instead of being man centered, and I think it does good in the area of explaining how our depraved minds really work. I think some of the extreme determinism is weak, and I think that God's grace may be resisted more Calvinism insists. I think Edwards nailed it with his view of free will. This is not 1650 where church membership is mandatory and a wrong opinion could get you killed. It really does not bother me that there are non-Calvinists.

 

[AustinC]

"Total depravity" is a theological concept within Calvinism that has morphed into the idea of total inability. While man is a sinner born with a tendency to sin he still has the ability to make rational choices and is expected to do so.

We have to deal with the consequences of the sin of Adam & Eve and man does everyday. Whether physical, sickness and death or spiritual, separation from God. So while we do, as you say, copy the sinful nature that we inherited from our first parents that has not taken away our free will.

Because of our sinful nature we have a tendency to choose evil over good. Even with that we still have the ability to choose the good as we see in Deuteronomy 30:19 “...Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” or again in Joshua 24:15 “But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...”. We see this same expectation to make real choices in the NT in Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

These verses suggest that humanity has the ability to choose between good and evil, and that our choices have consequences, even after the fall. So while as you said we copy the sinful nature that does not negate the ability to exercise our God given free will.

So man can choose as you say to remove the stain by dipping the paper into the blood of the Lamb.

It (corruption) has not taken away our will. Our will is not free to do whatever we want, therefore it is not free. Our will is confined and constricted by the one who is master over us.
When sin was our master, we were a slave to sin. Our will could never defeat sin and be free. When Jesus set us free, we became a slave to God. Our will can never defeat God and be free of God's rule. We are constrained by the Holy Spirit.

Sliverhair, the will exists, I do not deny it. But our will is never free.

 

[Silverhair]

It (corruption) has not taken away our will. Our will is not free to do whatever we want, therefore it is not free. Our will is confined and constricted by the one who is master over us.
When sin was our master, we were a slave to sin. Our will could never defeat sin and be free. When Jesus set us free, we became a slave to God. Our will can never defeat God and be free of God's rule. We are constrained by the Holy Spirit.

Sliverhair, the will exists, I do not deny it. But our will is never free.

So you just deny scripture. Got it.

 

[Silverhair]

Well @Silverhair , what gets me in trouble on here with a lot of Calvinists is I honestly think that after looking into Calvinist theology as much as you are inclined to do, if you decide it does not explain what you have observed in scripture or what other trusted Christians have told you then I would say reject it. I think it does a good job honoring God instead of being man centered, and I think it does good in the area of explaining how our depraved minds really work. I think some of the extreme determinism is weak, and I think that God's grace may be resisted more Calvinism insists. I think Edwards nailed it with his view of free will. This is not 1650 where church membership is mandatory and a wrong opinion could get you killed. It really does not bother me that there are non-Calvinists.

That is why I do reject Calvinism, it just does not fit with the bible as I have observed. Actually it does not seem to fit the reality of man. I have not read Edwards on free will but I have seen and read comments from other theologians that disagree with his view so there it is. Some like him others do not. Because of the various views that you find out there I am inclined to trust what I have found in the bible as guided by the Holy Spirit.

I do consider myself lucky that I had never heard of the A vs C fight until a few years ago so I was not influenced by them as far as my theology goes. I think way to many people allow others to tell them what the bible, in their opinion, means rather than take the time to dig out the gold for themselves. And as they say opinions are like a bus, there will be another one in 15 minutes.

 

[AustinC]

So you just deny scripture. Got it.

LOL, you provide no scripture for me to deny, and Romans and Galatians support my position.

Ultimately you are the king of empty assertions.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, you provide no scripture for me to deny, and Romans and Galatians support my position.

Ultimately you are the king of empty assertions.

Austin I understand that you can be blind to the truth but when you are blind to the written word then what is one to think. You just ignore any scripture that does not fit into your philosophy. Since you said I provided no scripture for you to deny then I have to conclude that you agree that these verse show man has a real free will with which they can choose to trust in God for salvation.

Because of our sinful nature we have a tendency to choose evil over good. Even with that we still have the ability to choose the good as we see in Deuteronomy 30:19 “...Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” or again in Joshua 24:15 “But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...”. We see this same expectation to make real choices in the NT in Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

These verses suggest that humanity has the ability to choose between good and evil, and that our choices have consequences, even after the fall. So while as you said we copy the sinful nature that does not negate the ability to exercise our God given free will.

You referred to Romans that supported your view but I note you did not provide any scripture. But here is one for you:
Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Note it is the person that makes the choice of to whom they will be a slave. Why you continue to deny what scripture says regarding man's free will I do not know but the fact is that you do so you are denying scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Austin I understand that you can be blind to the truth but when you are blind to the written word then what is one to think. You just ignore any scripture that does not fit into your philosophy. Since you said I provided no scripture for you to deny then I have to conclude that you agree that these verse show man has a real free will with which they can choose to trust in God for salvation.

Because of our sinful nature we have a tendency to choose evil over good. Even with that we still have the ability to choose the good as we see in Deuteronomy 30:19 “...Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.” or again in Joshua 24:15 “But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...”. We see this same expectation to make real choices in the NT in Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.”

These verses suggest that humanity has the ability to choose between good and evil, and that our choices have consequences, even after the fall. So while as you said we copy the sinful nature that does not negate the ability to exercise our God given free will.

You referred to Romans that supported your view but I note you did not provide any scripture. But here is one for you:
Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Note it is the person that makes the choice of to whom they will be a slave. Why you continue to deny what scripture says regarding man's free will I do not know but the fact is that you do so you are denying scripture.

Who is it that must set the sinner free from slavery to sin?
*John 8:31-34,36*
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Sliverhair, are we born in sin or are we sinless until we choose to sin?

You keep having a much higher opinion of yourself than God has of you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If anyone knows much about this, I would be interested in what the WCF means in Chapter 10 part 4 where it says that "they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved."

The 1689 Confession is very similar and adds as 'proof texts' John 6:44-45; 1 John 2:24-25. However, I expect that the writers were thinking of the Parable of the Sower and perhaps also Acts of the Apostles 24:25; Acts of the Apostles 26:28; 1 John 2:19-20. It was the opinion of most of the Puritans that Regeneration was not an instantaneous thing, but that there were operations of the Spirit, such as awakening and conviction, that could be resisted.

 

[Silverhair]

Who is it that must set the sinner free from slavery to sin?
*John 8:31-34,36*
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Sliverhair, are we born in sin or are we sinless until we choose to sin?

You keep having a much higher opinion of yourself than God has of you.

Austin look at the verses that you posted.
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

This verse is part of Jesus' discourse with the Jews in the temple. Jesus tells the Jews who have believed in him that if they continue to live in obedience to his teachings, then they are truly his disciples. That indicates a matter of choice.
The word "abide" in this verse means to dwell, to remain, or to live in. So, Jesus is saying that if someone wants to be a true disciple, they must decide to make his teachings the center of their lives and live in obedience to them.

He did not say I will make you abide in my word. They had to make that choice. And if they did choose to abide in Him then they would be free indeed. You have closed your mind to what the text actually says and only see what you want to find.

You continue to ignore text that I post that shows man has a free will and when you do post what you think supports your view it is only because you do not read the text. I note that you do not deal with any text I post but rather just make useless LOL type comments. If you think those texts do not support free will then prove it. Your hollow assertions mean nothing.

FYI no one is questioning that it is Christ Jesus that sets the sinner free from slavery, we were speaking of whether man has a free will in which to choose to trust in Him so that He will set them free. You are just trying to deflect the thread as you do not have a leg to stand on and you know it.

I do not have a high opinion of myself but I do have a high opinion of the word of God. You continue to ignore the clear text so it would seem that the one that has the high opinion themselves is you.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I agree with that just the way you stated it. When I carefully read what Owen, a high-Calvinist said, even though he had a high view of God's sovereignty and flat out said that faith is not your own but that it is implanted or "wrought" in you by the Holy Spirit - even he said that the Holy Spirit works through a persons reason and normal mental faculties and will. That is why I have no problem with an individual who in their view, simply decided to come to Christ. In reality, that's what you did. The Bible is pretty clear though that you decided to come because of a work of the Spirit in you.

Now here is what a free will person needs to ask themselves. Why do I insist that I came on my own? If it is simply the most apparent and obvious quick analysis of what happened then fine. But they should look for any sign of pride or thinking that they contribute anything towards their salvation in coming. If that is there it IS a problem. But you do not have to be a Calvinist and the way you described it above seems good to me.

At the very least, the Holy Spirit must cut through all of the lying, deceiving voices that would keep one from believing God’s word and in His Son. The forces of darkness are far too powerful for man alone to deflect, much less defeat.

But again, anyone imagining that they aided God in their being saved, that they actually did something to save themselves, so at least deserve a pat on the back, haven’t got the picture right at all. The “great surrender” is the opposite of that. There is no deserve in it, other than we get what we don't deserve, rather than what we do.

 

[AustinC]

Austin look at the verses that you posted.
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

This verse is part of Jesus' discourse with the Jews in the temple. Jesus tells the Jews who have believed in him that if they continue to live in obedience to his teachings, then they are truly his disciples. That indicates a matter of choice.
The word "abide" in this verse means to dwell, to remain, or to live in. So, Jesus is saying that if someone wants to be a true disciple, they must decide to make his teachings the center of their lives and live in obedience to them.

He did not say I will make you abide in my word. They had to make that choice. And if they did choose to abide in Him then they would be free indeed. You have closed your mind to what the text actually says and only see what you want to find.

You continue to ignore text that I post that shows man has a free will and when you do post what you think supports your view it is only because you do not read the text. I note that you do not deal with any text I post but rather just make useless LOL type comments. If you think those texts do not support free will then prove it. Your hollow assertions mean nothing.

FYI no one is questioning that it is Christ Jesus that sets the sinner free from slavery, we were speaking of whether man has a free will in which to choose to trust in Him so that He will set them free. You are just trying to deflect the thread as you do not have a leg to stand on and you know it.

I do not have a high opinion of myself but I do have a high opinion of the word of God. You continue to ignore the clear text so it would seem that the one that has the high opinion themselves is you.

Who sets you free, Sliverhair?

Hint: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[Silverhair]

Who sets you free, Sliverhair?

Hint: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Still not willing to trust what the bible says are you. What did I say int he post Austin
"FYI no one is questioning that it is Christ Jesus that sets the sinner free from slavery, we were speaking of whether man has a free will in which to choose to trust in Him so that He will set them free. You are just trying to deflect the thread as you do not have a leg to stand on and you know it."

But you still will not deal with the scripture that I posted so I have to conclude that you have not response. The bible says man has a free will and you have nothing to stand against it except your blow and bluster. Admit it Austin your theological position is vapid. As I have said before your theology comes from a bad root, Augustine's pagan theology, and thus produces a bad tree, Calvinism.

It is sad to think that you actually believe you are defending calvinism or at least your version of calvinism. Trust what the bible says Austin because clearly you do not as you still deny the scripture that I have posted. So it seems it is not the bible you believe but your errant version of the bible.

Austin you like to claim that people do not deal with the scripture that you post so why is it that you fail to deal with scripture that others post, such as what I have posted in this thread. Do you hope that if you ignore those verses then the reality of free will will just go away?

You are just proving yourself to be a rather disingenuous poster so why should anyone take you seriously?

 

[AustinC]

Still not willing to trust what the bible says are you. What did I say int he post Austin
"FYI no one is questioning that it is Christ Jesus that sets the sinner free from slavery, we were speaking of whether man has a free will in which to choose to trust in Him so that He will set them free. You are just trying to deflect the thread as you do not have a leg to stand on and you know it."

But you still will not deal with the scripture that I posted so I have to conclude that you have not response. The bible says man has a free will and you have nothing to stand against it except your blow and bluster. Admit it Austin your theological position is vapid. As I have said before your theology comes from a bad root, Augustine's pagan theology, and thus produces a bad tree, Calvinism.

It is sad to think that you actually believe you are defending calvinism or at least your version of calvinism. Trust what the bible says Austin because clearly you do not as you still deny the scripture that I have posted. So it seems it is not the bible you believe but your errant version of the bible.

Austin you like to claim that people do not deal with the scripture that you post so why is it that you fail to deal with scripture that others post, such as what I have posted in this thread. Do you hope that if you ignore those verses then the reality of free will will just go away?

You are just proving yourself to be a rather disingenuous poster so why should anyone take you seriously?

We get it Sliverhair. You only want God if you can be in control. If God is fully Supreme, that knocks you off your pedestal and somehow you think the Bible sets you up as co-ruler with God.
Why you cannot trust the Bible is beyond me

 

[DaveXR650]

But again, anyone imagining that they aided God in their being saved, that they actually did something to save themselves, so at least deserve a pat on the back, haven’t got the picture right at all. The “great surrender” is the opposite of that. There is no deserve in it, other than we get what we don't deserve, rather than what we do.

I think that is where the difference becomes very important. It's at the point of whether you really think you did something of merit to help save yourself. Some, not all, but some Calvinists are so into constantly telling everyone when it comes to faith that "you didn't do that". They sound more like President Obama than anything you find in scripture. That you didn't contribute anything by works or merit is undisputable. But how exactly the human will works is not agreed upon by all Christians. And it is a disingenuous claim to make that anyone who doesn't have a high-Calvinist view of how the Holy Spirit operates is adding works. And you would be surprised at what some said who you would think would be total free will believers.

I have some books from my fundamentalist days and here's John R. Rice: "Some good people make much of "free will", though the scripture does not use the term in regard to eternal salvation at all. In fact the Bible teaches that a lost sinner is so dead in trespasses and sin that he could not even believe but for the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said 'No man can come to me...except the Father draw him'. Jesus said 'All that the Father giveth me shall come to me and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.' Evidently the Father gives a poor sinner to Jesus, and then puts it in his heart to come to Jesus. Of course the Savior would never cast out one who comes, having been given of Him by the Father!"
That's from "You Must Be Born Again" Page 22 and 23.

Rice considered himself a "moderate" Calvinist, even though in other books he wrote he didn't exactly tiptoe through the TULIP. And many Calvinists on here would not even accept him as a brother. But the point is, there are a wide range of Christian "camps" that understand and use the term that you have to get "saved". And they also know what they are talking about - even if they aren't Calvinists.

 

[Silverhair]

We get it Sliverhair. You only want God if you can be in control. If God is fully Supreme, that knocks you off your pedestal and somehow you think the Bible sets you up as co-ruler with God.
Why you cannot trust the Bible is beyond me

Trying to deflect the thread again Austin? The fact you have to try this old canard again just proves you have no support for your position. You keep saying God is sovereign so the question is why do you not let Him be? Do you think a sovereign God has to follow the rules you set for Him? You have a real problem with the idea that God actually allows for real free will because in your mind that would mean He is not sovereign, but how does that work? Is your version of God sovereign or only semi sovereign because you sure do limit His authority.

It seems that you have no answer to the scripture that I have posted on this thread that shows man has a God given free will so you go with the red herring deflection ploy. Come on Austin man up and actually respond to those verses. Why do you refuse to deal with the scriptures that I have provided that show your view is in error?

I am going to put this in caps so perhaps you will remember it:

GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY HE HAS ALLOWED MAN TO HAVE A REAL FREE WILL JUST WE SEE IN SCRIPTURE.

Now do you think you can remember that? If you continue to doubt man has a free will see the scripture I posted in this thread.

PS You really need to get some new material as yours is getting really stale.

 

[tyndale1946]

No you can’t!

You can if The Holy Spirit alone brings you... Brother Glen

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You can if The Holy Spirit alone brings you... Brother Glen

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Yes but not on your own… that’s man made not of God, for He is sovereign Lord.

 

[Alan Gross]

Point!

having been given of Him by the Father!"

(Don't tell anyone but that is the answer to the OP.)


From: Calvinism As An Evangelizing Force | Monergism

See: Calvinist Evangelism...

"Now, the thought is, must not a theology which agrees with the facts of the case, which recognizes the actual condition of man and his relations to God, be more favorable to man's salvation than one which ignores the facts?

"This is confirmed by the nature of the particular doctrines involved. We freely agree with Froude and Macaulay that Arminianism, in one aspect of it, is more agreeable to the feelings" and "more popular" with the natural heart, as that which exalts man in his own sight is always more agreeable to him than that which abases him.

Arminianism, in denying the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer, in setting him on his own works of righteousness, and in promising him such perfection in this life as that there is no more sin left in him -- or, in the words of John Wesley, a "free, full and present salvation from all the guilt, all the power and all the in-being of sin" (3) -- lays the foundation for the notions of works of supererogation, and that the believer, while in a state of grace, cannot commit sin.

"It thus powerfully ministers to human pride and self-glorification.

"Calvinism, on the other hand, by imputing Christ's righteousness to the believer, and making the sinner utterly and absolutely dependent on Christ for his salvation, cuts away all occasion for boasting and lays him low at the foot of the cross.

"Hence it cannot be so agreeable to the feelings of our carnal heart.

"But may it not be more salutary, nevertheless? It is not always the most agreeable medicine which is the most healing.

"The experience of the apostle John is one of frequent occurrence, that the little book which is sweet as honey in the mouth is bitter in the belly.

"Christ crucified was a stumbling-block to one class of people and foolishness to another, and yet he was, and is, the power of God and the wisdom of God unto salvation to all who believe.

"The centre doctrine of Calvinism, as an evangelistic power, is that which Luther called "the article of a standing or a falling Church" -- "justification by faith alone, in the righteousness of Christ alone." And is not that the doctrine of the gospel?

"Where does the Holy Spirit ascribe the merit of any part of salvation to the sinner?"