Can You Come to Christ on Your Own Part II

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Point!



(Don't tell anyone but that is the answer to the OP.)


From: Calvinism As An Evangelizing Force | Monergism

See: Calvinist Evangelism...

"Now, the thought is, must not a theology which agrees with the facts of the case, which recognizes the actual condition of man and his relations to God, be more favorable to man's salvation than one which ignores the facts?

"This is confirmed by the nature of the particular doctrines involved. We freely agree with Froude and Macaulay that Arminianism, in one aspect of it, is more agreeable to the feelings" and "more popular" with the natural heart, as that which exalts man in his own sight is always more agreeable to him than that which abases him.

Arminianism, in denying the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer, in setting him on his own works of righteousness, and in promising him such perfection in this life as that there is no more sin left in him -- or, in the words of John Wesley, a "free, full and present salvation from all the guilt, all the power and all the in-being of sin" (3) -- lays the foundation for the notions of works of supererogation, and that the believer, while in a state of grace, cannot commit sin.

"It thus powerfully ministers to human pride and self-glorification.

"Calvinism, on the other hand, by imputing Christ's righteousness to the believer, and making the sinner utterly and absolutely dependent on Christ for his salvation, cuts away all occasion for boasting and lays him low at the foot of the cross.

"Hence it cannot be so agreeable to the feelings of our carnal heart.

"But may it not be more salutary, nevertheless? It is not always the most agreeable medicine which is the most healing.

"The experience of the apostle John is one of frequent occurrence, that the little book which is sweet as honey in the mouth is bitter in the belly.

"Christ crucified was a stumbling-block to one class of people and foolishness to another, and yet he was, and is, the power of God and the wisdom of God unto salvation to all who believe.

"The centre doctrine of Calvinism, as an evangelistic power, is that which Luther called "the article of a standing or a falling Church" -- "justification by faith alone, in the righteousness of Christ alone." And is not that the doctrine of the gospel?

"Where does the Holy Spirit ascribe the merit of any part of salvation to the sinner?"

Add to that, for those who pick apart the 5 doctrines of grace… the complete 5 points must stand together & together they point to one central truth: Salvation is all of Grace because it is all of God, and because it is all of God, it is all for His glory…to God alone be the glory! ​

 

[Silverhair]

Add to that, for those who pick apart the 5 doctrines of grace… the complete 5 points must stand together & together they point to one central truth: Salvation is all of Grace because it is all of God, and because it is all of God, it is all for His glory…to God alone be the glory! ​

I am curious as to how you would think that God unconditionally condemning billions to hell for no other reason than He could would bring Him Glory?

Is it not true that only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

Salvation is all of Grace and God saves us because we believe upon hearing and trusting the gospel message. Romans 10:13-14

 

[DaveXR650]

Is it not true that only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

I don't think all men have an equal chance to know God but there are too many verses that indicate a great love of God for a lot of people. You have the direct promise of God himself that if you come to him he will in no wise refuse you. That over rides any understanding of the 5 points or anything else. The WCF expresses it as a promised covenant with men.

I know for a fact that many 5 point Calvinists believe that 100 percent. But there are a some Calvinists that in defending the doctrines of grace are so eager to present God's sovereignty that they seem to actually relish the idea that God has created millions of people who before they were even thought of, were destined to burn in Hell forever. They seem to enjoy pointing out that you can't just think you can come to Christ, you may not be elect. All the while of course, they are assuming THEY are indeed elect.

 

[AustinC]

I am curious as to how you would think that God unconditionally condemning billions to hell for no other reason than He could would bring Him Glory?

Is it not true that only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

Salvation is all of Grace and God saves us because we believe upon hearing and trusting the gospel message. Romans 10:13-14

Do you want fairness and equity, Sliverhair? Is that what you really want?

If so, then you want all humanity to go to hell, which is the only fair and equitable option from God.

Now, if you desire the Sovereign King to have full and unconditional authority to choose how and to whom He extends saving grace, then what you want is an unmerited act of grace on your behalf.

The latter is what the gospel teaches. But, do you really want that? Or, do you want the authority to stand before the King of Kings and dictate the terms of your surrender, under the stipulation that you receive some of the credit?

 

[AustinC]

I don't think all men have an equal chance to know God but there are too many verses that indicate a great love of God for a lot of people. You have the direct promise of God himself that if you come to him he will in no wise refuse you. That over rides any understanding of the 5 points or anything else. The WCF expresses it as a promised covenant with men.

I know for a fact that many 5 point Calvinists believe that 100 percent. But there are a some Calvinists that in defending the doctrines of grace are so eager to present God's sovereignty that they seem to actually relish the idea that God has created millions of people who before they were even thought of, were destined to burn in Hell forever. They seem to enjoy pointing out that you can't just think you can come to Christ, you may not be elect. All the while of course, they are assuming THEY are indeed elect.

I know of no one who relishes the idea of people dying in hell.
I know of many who humbly recognize that they deserved hell, but God extended amazing grace without any reason besides the fact that it is God's Sovereign right to do so.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am curious as to how you would think that God unconditionally condemning billions to hell for no other reason than He could would bring Him Glory?

Is it not true that only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

Salvation is all of Grace and God saves us because we believe upon hearing and trusting the gospel message. Romans 10:13-14

1st question… answer: Not my problem.

 

[DaveXR650]

I know of many who humbly recognize that they deserved hell, but God extended amazing grace without any reason besides the fact that it is God's Sovereign right to do so.

Look, it's inherent in deterministic doctrines that you're going to get that charge. I said they "seem" to relish it, because of their theological system they have a need to emphasize the sovereignty side of God more than the love of God. You did it above when you said the only reason was that it's God's sovereign right to do so. You could have just as well said God SO loved the world was the reason but you chose to emphasize the sovereignty of God.

I am curious as to how you would think that God unconditionally condemning billions to hell for no other reason than He could would bring Him Glory?

1st question… answer: Not my problem.

This came in while I was typing. I don't think you guys really mean it like that but it looks the way it looks.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't think all men have an equal chance to know God but there are too many verses that indicate a great love of God for a lot of people. You have the direct promise of God himself that if you come to him he will in no wise refuse you. That over rides any understanding of the 5 points or anything else. The WCF expresses it as a promised covenant with men.

I know for a fact that many 5 point Calvinists believe that 100 percent. But there are a some Calvinists that in defending the doctrines of grace are so eager to present God's sovereignty that they seem to actually relish the idea that God has created millions of people who before they were even thought of, were destined to burn in Hell forever. They seem to enjoy pointing out that you can't just think you can come to Christ, you may not be elect. All the while of course, they are assuming THEY are indeed elect.

Actually it would seem that God does think all men have an equal chance to know Him and He does hold them responsible for that. Romans 1:18-19

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is it not true that only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God.

And why should that bother you? Do you feel you are among them? Let me ask you, do you believe Christ died for all men? Also was Christ an idealist?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually it would seem that God does think all men have an equal chance to know Him and He does hold them responsible for that. Romans 1:18-19

Ah yes, the Chance System of for salvation argument! LOL

the peoples understanding with that consept is that if there is a chance to be saved, there must also be a chance to not be saved. Does God work by chance or by purpose? I submit that Gods plan of salvation is based on His own sovereign purpose and Grace which was laid up in Christ before the world began… not based on anything in man.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually it would seem that God does think all men have an equal chance to know Him and He does hold them responsible for that. Romans 1:18-19

Actually it would seem that God does think all men have an equal chance to know Him and He does hold them responsible for that. Romans 1:18-19

Look as to the fairness of God's plan of salvation, we might state that all men have an equal chance to save themselves. If any will live completely above sin and keep every precept of the law, he then will have all the blessings of the law. The only trouble with this system is that salvation has never come by keeping the law; and beyond that, no man has yet been able to keep the law with the exception of the Man Christ Jesus. If man could save himself, God would not have sent His Son to pay the price of sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know of no one who relishes the idea of people dying in hell.
I know of many who humbly recognize that they deserved hell, but God extended amazing grace without any reason besides the fact that it is God's Sovereign right to do so.

Yes all deserve hell…we are not sinless. And if God did not select some for salvation then heaven would be empty of mankind. Only Jesus was without sin…the holy lamb

 

[AustinC]

Look, it's inherent in deterministic doctrines that you're going to get that charge. I said they "seem" to relish it, because of their theological system they have a need to emphasize the sovereignty side of God more than the love of God. You did it above when you said the only reason was that it's God's sovereign right to do so. You could have just as well said God SO loved the world was the reason but you chose to emphasize the sovereignty of God.


This came in while I was typing. I don't think you guys really mean it like that but it looks the way it looks.

Of course I emphasize the Sovereignty of God. God is Sovereign.

You point out that humans hate hearing that we are entirely corrupt. We really think that we're not too bad. We try to do good and we most often show kindness to all people. That's what we think.

I just went in to the jail yesterday to share the good news. The men and women in jail spent most of their time doing good toward people. It was just those momentary decisions that were actually against the law.

Now, since they mostly do good, does that mean that the law should overlook their law breaking? Should the judge just ignore the law breaking?

When the President of the United States pardons prisoners, should he pardon all prisoners in all jails in the United States and then sit back to see who accepts his pardon and who rejects it? Isn't the President unfair to pick and choose who is pardoned?

DaveX, your complaint is that I should be less confrontational and less forthright so that men might think they are in control. Why on earth would the child of God do such a thing? Do you honestly think that the way you word things will somehow do something that only God can do? Let your yes be yess and your no he no.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you want fairness and equity, Sliverhair? Is that what you really want?

If so, then you want all humanity to go to hell, which is the only fair and equitable option from God.

Austin why do you keep saying God has to be fair? Where do you see that in the bible?
I do see in the bible that He is just Romans 3:26. So for God to be just it requires that those that are being judged are judged on level ground. No special treatment for some. But special treatment for some is what your TULIP presents, therefore it can not be biblical.

Now, if you desire the Sovereign King to have full and unconditional authority to choose how and to whom He extends saving grace, then what you want is an unmerited act of grace on your behalf.

God is sovereign so He has the authority to do as He chooses and according to the bible He has chosen to save those that trust in His son. That is a condition in case you missed that point. Romans 3:21-22

Here you go again forgetting that God is just. So which do you want, Austin, God to be fair or just?

The latter is what the gospel teaches. But, do you really want that? Or, do you want the authority to stand before the King of Kings and dictate the terms of your surrender, under the stipulation that you receive some of the credit?

Your theology teaches unconditional salvation but the bible does not. Our salvation is by grace through faith, no faith no salvation.See if you can follow this: if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:9

Actually what the gospel teaches is the death burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. We are to trust in the subject of the gospel message and when we do then via the grace of God we are saved. It would seem that everything about our salvation is conditional.

 

[Silverhair]

I know of no one who relishes the idea of people dying in hell.
I know of many who humbly recognize that they deserved hell, but God extended amazing grace without any reason besides the fact that it is God's Sovereign right to do so.

I see, Austin, that you are still denying scripture. The reason God saves us is because we have met the condition He set for salvation, faith in the finished work of His son.

Acts of the Apostles 16:31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness, through faith in Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing word of God
Galatians 3:24 ...that we might be justified by faith
Galatians 3:26 sons of God through faith in Christ

 

[Silverhair]

1st question… answer: Not my problem.

So you are just hoping that you are part of that so called elect group because in reality there is no way in which you can really be sure. You can only know for sure that you have truly been elected if you persevere all the way to the end of your life according to your theology. So the TULIP really is your problem.

 

[DaveXR650]

When the President of the United States pardons prisoners, should he pardon all prisoners in all jails in the United States and then sit back to see who accepts his pardon and who rejects it? Isn't the President unfair to pick and choose who is pardoned?

No, my point is that the gospel looks an awful lot like God is handing out pardons. Even if it is all predetermined it still looks to you and me that pardons are freely available. That is where the emphasis will be, not because it all depends on us, but because that's just where we come in. Faith is what connects us to the pardon. Even if you have a high Calvinistic view of the order of salvation, that is where the person comes in. He's passive and unaware of being regenerated, except for the effects.

 

[AustinC]

I see, Austin, that you are still denying scripture. The reason God saves us is because we have met the condition He set for salvation, faith in the finished work of His son.

Acts of the Apostles 16:31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness, through faith in Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing word of God
Galatians 3:24 ...that we might be justified by faith
Galatians 3:26 sons of God through faith in Christ

I don't deny any scripture.
I deny that dead men can believe and I see the scripture telling me my denial is correct.
Every person who believes does so precisely because God has caused them to believe.

We disagree. You say man chooses his own belief and causes God to save him because he believed in faith.
I say that God chooses man and causes him to believe that he is saved. We are fundamentally opposed. You pick sentences from parts of the Bible to say you have proof. I pick passages from the Bible to say I have proof. Neither of us will budge.
Perhaps the only difference is that I once held your view and I see it for it's massive error while you cannot yet see your error.

Now, why would I want to go back to the dogs vomit?

 

[Silverhair]

Look as to the fairness of God's plan of salvation, we might state that all men have an equal chance to save themselves. If any will live completely above sin and keep every precept of the law, he then will have all the blessings of the law. The only trouble with this system is that salvation has never come by keeping the law; and beyond that, no man has yet been able to keep the law with the exception of the Man Christ Jesus. If man could save himself, God would not have sent His Son to pay the price of sin.

Who said they had to keep the law? God says they have to trust in His son. You are just saying the same illogical things as Austin. Start trusting what the bible says and not what some man tells you the bible says.

Man does not and can not save himself that is just a old canard that calvinists keep throwing out when they have nothing to say.

God save those that trust in His son:
Acts of the Apostles 16:31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness, through faith in Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing word of God
Galatians 3:24 ...that we might be justified by faith
Galatians 3:26 sons of God through faith in Christ

I do find it odd that for a group that claims to believe the bible you do deny what the bible says quite a bit.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't deny any scripture.
I deny that dead men can believe and I see the scripture telling me my denial is correct.
Every person who believes does so precisely because God has caused them to believe.

We disagree. You say man chooses his own belief and causes God to save him because he believed in faith.
I say that God chooses man and causes him to believe that he is saved. We are fundamentally opposed. You pick sentences from parts of the Bible to say you have proof. I pick passages from the Bible to say I have proof. Neither of us will budge.
Perhaps the only difference is that I once held your view and I see it for it's massive error while you cannot yet see your error.

Now, why would I want to go back to the dogs vomit?

You keep making these claims but you do not provide any scripture to support those claims. Your theology, as I have shown you, came from a bad root, Augustine's pagan philosophy. So if the root is bad the tree will be bad. You can keep denying the truth but that will not alter the the truth.

What really sad is that as you say you once actually knew the truth and then choose disregard it and follow a false philosophy that puffs you up. Perhaps someday God will open your eyes to the truth and show you the error of your ways.