Featured Are forms other than Calvinism & Arminanism debate form to be C & A debate?

I submit that, on the contrary, "Calvinists" are worth their weight in doctrine.

They would be right to say this.

God utilizes our faith "worthless, filthy rag faith" as you say?

Our ungodly faith in God is counted as Godly righteousness* or Godly righteous* faith.

*The Perfect Righteousness of the Virgin Born Son of God Who Obtained it, by Living under the Law, without sin.

He just gives you the Perfect Righteousness of the Virgin Born Son of God Who Obtained it, by Living under the Law, without sin?

For your ungodly faith; "worthless, filthy rag faith" as you say?

That's easy.


What happened to the sinner's sin debt against The Judge of the Universe?

 

Start at verse one and you'll understand how to interpret verses 12-14. As long as you ignore context you will keep interpreting the Bible like the ungodly do.

 

Excuse me for repeating myself, but I plugged a Bible verse below several of your statements on "how God Saves souls", in a quest to learn how other "forms" work, per the OP.

You've got me, as to how you make the Bible fit your idea.

 

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8.

Yep. I'm going to make 'that' refer to the same thing as 'it'.

Not two different things.

Faith to be saved by Grace is not of yourselves, Faith to be saved by Grace is the gift of God.

 

A former Catholic who discipled me in the way of Salvation by Grace, The Doctrines of Grace, Church Truths, like Believer's Baptism, and brought me and my soul under the Teaching of the Eternal Word at his New Testament Baptist church, had actually prayed to God, to know "the true church".

You may not believe this, but it is a mystery that must be revealed by our Father.

JonC says he knows the word church in The Bible just means an organized assembly. ( as at In Search Of The Universal, Invisible Church (Chapter 1) by Elder Milburn Cockrell - Sovereign Grace Landmark Baptist Pastor)
It is almost as if that has to first be revealed by our Father!

Colossians 1:24: "...His body, which is the church. (His kind of churches in the generic sense, i.e., drop the "the" and it is "Churches").

25 "I became its servant by the commission God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God,

26 the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints.

27 To them..." (His kind of churches, His Organization/ Organism He Promised Perpetuity, to be His Witness throughout our present New Testament age.)

All below adapted from: https://harmony-mbc.com/wp-content/...rticles/The-Church-that-Jesus-Built-Mason.pdf

"Now, before I begin to suggest some of the peoples of ancient times through whom Baptists may properly claim historical continuity, let me reemphasize: two points that I request the reader to bear in mind throughout the reading of the entire chapter.

First, all I am seeking to establish is that there has always from the time of Christ, been groups of individuals who held on essential points the New Testament faith, and who banded together in churches that were essentially baptistic in faith and practice.

Second, only two doctrines are essential to a New Testament church; The way of salvation and the way of baptism. If a group of churches are sound on these two cardinal points they may properly be called Baptist churches

It is by no means a difficult task to ascertain the fundamental doctrines and practices of the churches that existed in the days of the apostles because the church which Jesus founded has certain well-defined doctrinal characteristics laid down in the New Testament by which it may be forever recognized and distinguished from all apocryphal institutions which may through the ages arise to call themselves Christian churches.

We "propose to conduct our search for the true church along three corroborative lines, as follows:

1. THE LINE OF HISTORICAL ELIMINATION.

So in our search, we must eliminate every so-called church whose origin may be dated after the time of Christ. If in this process we eliminate every church save one, we shall be forced to the conclusion that that one is the true church.

Going back to the much-discussed Matthew 16:18, we find two historical tests defined by Jesus---tests that should help and guide us in our investigation. The first is that the only true church was founded by JESUS HIMSELF -" I will build my church." The second is that the institution which Jesus called "My church" shall never cease to exist through the ages---"The gates of hades shall not prevail against it. " If in applying these two scriptural, historical tests we find that none of the organizations calling themselves churches, save one, can meet these tests, I must reiterate, we must conclude that one is the true church of Christ.

Let us then inquire into the origin of the various denominations that exist today In this inquiry we shall concern ourselves only with the origin of the main denominations: those that are well-known and typical of all others.

The denominations that we shall consider are those from which the many small sects have sprung in more recent years. Being the offspring of the older denominations and having their rise in very recent times, they of course fall so far short of meeting Christ's historical test that it would be entirely superfluous to deal with them.

-WHEN DID THE CHURCH OF ROME ORIGINATE? We have this question from Dr. J. B. Moody (My Church p. 95): "It did not originate in a day or year, but gradually subverted the apostles teaching, and in centuries inaugurated full-grown popery. But, there is not a trace of a pope or a universal father… in the first three centuries of the Christian era.”

ORIGIN OF THE LUTHERAN CHURCH The history of the world does not refer to the existence of a Lutheran, or Lutheran Church before the days of Luther. That he was the founder of the Lutheran Church none can successfully deny. Luther, revolting against the degeneracy of the Catholic Church, organized a movement for reform. There is no historical evidence that he even thought of breaking with the Catholic Church and forming a new one.

THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND, OR EPISCOPAL CHURCH, etc., etc.

ORIGIN OF THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

THE CONGREGATIONALISTS.

ORIGIN OF METHODISM.

ORIGIN OF THE CAMPBELLITE DENOMINATION.

WHAT ABOUT THE BAPTISTS? We have shown that every sect, denomination, and so-called church, Baptist alone excepted, can be traced to a human founder, and originated long after Christ started His church. Plainly all of these being of post-apostolic origin, are eliminated.

2. THE LINE OF COMPARISON OF DOCTRINES.

"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine. -Titus 2:1

"Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrine". -Heb. 13:9 "...

In doctrine showing uncorruptness."-Titus 2:7

con't

 

In seeking to identify the church which Jesus built by means of doctrinal comparison, it might be well to indicate the method which we shall pursue. Let us first go to the New Testament and note the characteristics of the churches of apostolic times. Next, we shall examine Baptist characteristics to see if they coincide with those of the New Testament period. Then, finally, we shall take a brief glimpse at the teachings and practices of other great denominations to see how they stand in relation to the doctrines and practices of the churches of the New Testament.

They were composed of THOSE WHO HAD BEEN REGENERATED AND BORN AGAIN.

New Testament churches practiced only BELIEVER'S BAPTISM.

Can Baptists claim any more than other churches in regard to the doctrines just mentioned? How do other denominations stand in regard to these matters?

Note well this very true statement by Dr. T. T. Martin (The N. T. Church): "BAPTIST CHURCHES ARE THE ONLY CHURCHES ON EARTH THAT REQUIRE A PERSON TO PROFESS TO BE SAVED BEFORE THE PERSON UNITES WITH THE CHURCH OR IS BAPTIZED."

This statement proved startling to me when I first read it several years ago.

But an investigation has confirmed to me the belief that it is true. Other great denominations either mix infant baptism with a believer's baptism or else hold the theory of baptismal regeneration.

Another thing that stands out in the New Testament as regards the churches of that time is the WAY OF SALVATION as taught by them.

The apostolic churches held that salvation was by grace, through faith in Christ alone. As proof of this I submit Paul's well-known words found in Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast. "

Dr. S. E. Tull: "The Catholics believe that salvation is not purely of grace, that the death of Jesus Christ is not the only means of salvation, but that the ordinance of baptism is efficacious, contains sacramental grace, and is essential to salvation."

On the doctrine of salvation purely by grace through faith, the Baptists stand alone, and all others hold the position of the Catholics. Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Methodists hold squarely to the Catholic position that infant baptism contains sacramental grace, while the Campbellites hold that baptism by immersion is essential to salvation.

Protestantism is a mixture of the Baptist and Catholic positions. A quotation from Dr. M. P. Hunt (The Baptist Faith) will make this clear. He writes as follows: "In many things, the Protestant world is now with the Baptists, but in some things, it still clings to the rags of Catholicism. As, for instance, the episcopacy, infant baptism, and baptismal regeneration.


3. THE LINE OF HISTORICAL STATEMENTS BY RELIABLE HISTORIANS."

I begin with those who have been the bitterest enemies and persecutors of Cardinal Hosius, the president of the Council of Trent. He says: "If the truth of religion were to be judged by the readiness and boldness of which a man of any sect shows in suffering, then the opinion and persuasion of no sect can be truer and surer than that of the Anabaptists since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past that have been more generally punished, or that have more cheerfully and steadfastly undergone, and even offered themselves to the most cruel punishment than these people." (Quoted from Christian's History)..."

...

This is a Baptist Board. I thought I would share some Baptist Church Truth.
We should at least know as much as our enemies.

see: Baptist beginings in Americia

Baptist beginings in Americia

 

Exegete the text Austin. Lets see what you know.

 

You are quite close there Alan
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

For by grace {of God} you have been saved {why} through faith; and that {your salvation} not of yourselves, it {your salvation} is the gift of God;

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life {your salvation} in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now that is as clear a statement of what the "gift of God" is as you will get. Do you have one that supports your view?

 

I have seen it "diagrammed" that way, but I think it misses more important consideration, as in: tautology; the saying of the same thing twice in different words, generally considered to be a fault of style (e.g., they arrived one after the other in succession ).

from: Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, at Ephesians 2:8 Commentaries: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:

"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''

His reply was:

"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or *all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely.

However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position).

In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe. Editor)"...Editor of BibleHub.com.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8.

*all three in conjunction:
"It" would = "For by grace are ye saved through faith".

...
From Rich DeRuiter at: Breaking down Ephesians 2:8, how do I do that? - Logos Forums

"In resolving that question, the key (IMHO) is understanding how the pronoun "this" functions. You suggest that "this" points to either grace or faith. Have you considered that "this" may point to the entire phrase: this = salvation by grace through faith? If so the entire means of salvation is a gift, which does not answer the question of whether both then must be gifts as well.

"Maybe you'll want to answer the question of whether either or both faith/grace is a gift by looking at other Scriptures."


It is controversial. All of it is a Gift of God.

Repentance and Faith are simultaneous, "Twin Doctrines", Given in Salvation, for everyone.

Acts 20:21 "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

True repentance, like all good things, is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25).

"25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." I Corinthians 2:13.

 

I don't see anyone setting that in stone, by anybody that knows Greek.

 

“Particular Baptist Theology vs Believe Whatever Tickles Your Ears”