Visiting punishment for Sin upon children?

[Van]

The concept of Original Sin is that because Adam chose to sin and disregard what he knew was God's will, all humanity has been "made sinners" conceived in iniquity and thus born spiritually dead, in a separated from God state, as if they had already sinned and suffered the consequence of sin. See Deuteronomy 5:9.

However, some reject this Original Sin concept because we here on earth are not to cause children to die because of the sins of their fathers. See Deuteronomy 24:16.

So our first question is God bound by the commands He gives to humanity?

 

[37818]

The concept of Original Sin is that because Adam chose to sin and disregard what he knew was God's will, all humanity has been "made sinners" conceived in iniquity and thus born spiritually dead, in a separated from God state, as if they had already sinned and suffered the consequence of sin. See Deuteronomy 5:9.

However, some reject this Original Sin concept because we here on earth are not to cause children to die because of the sins of their fathers. See Deuteronomy 24:16.

So our first question is God bound by the commands He gives to humanity?

Romans 3:4, ". . . God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged. . . ."

Matthew 7:2, ". . . For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. . . ."

Psalms 51:4, ". . . that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest. . . ."

Notice "Thou art judged" was changed from "Thou Judgest" per Jesus' warning in Matthew 7:2. Being God's standard. Genesis 3:22, ". . . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . ."

 

[Van]

Does scripture teach God is faithful to what He says He will do, thus keeping His promises? Yes Romans 3:4.
Does this verse say God does not judge us by standards for us and not for Him?

 

[canadyjd]

Does scripture teach God is faithful to what He says He will do, thus keeping His promises? Yes Romans 3:4.
Does this verse say God does not judge us by standards for us and not for Him?

You really have two questions. Romans 5:12 clearly states sin entered the world by one man (Adam) and that all have sinned, so the “concept” of original sin is clearly taught in scripture.

The second question you are asking is whether God holds Himself to same standards that He holds us. No, God has no need to judge Himself. He is the standard by which all are judge . Jesus said, “be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

God is perfect. Every decision He makes is perfect. Every action He takes is perfect. Every thought He has is perfect.

What you are doing, in a back handed sort of way, is suggesting WE should judge God by the standards in which He judges us.

This kind of thinking can only lead to heresy.

peace to you

 

[Deacon]

As humans we have a natural inclination towards sin. Whether we inherit guilt is up for debate but part of being human is the undeniable and irresistible propensity to sin.

John Murray says it well when he comments on Genesis 6:5

There is the intensity — ‘the wickedness of men was great in the earth’; there is the inwardness —‘the imagination of the thoughts of his heart’, and expression unsurpassed in the usage of scripture to indicate that the most rudimentary movement of thought was evil; there is the totality — ‘every imagination’; there is the consistency —‘continually’; there is the exclusiveness — ‘only evil’; there is the early manifestation — from his youth’ [from Gen 8:21]
​

God is just. We all sin and and fall short. Thank God’s for his grace without which we all would perish.

Rob

 

[Deacon]

This kind of thinking can only lead to heresy.

Well many Psalms, Ecclesiastes and most of Job were written with the idea of judging God.

So NO! it isn’t heretical to think about it or to entertain the idea.
But YES, God is just and each of the author’s conclusions were that God is just and is a justifier.

Rob

 

[canadyjd]

Well many Psalms, Ecclesiastes and most of Job were written with the idea of judging God.

So NO! it isn’t heretical to think about it or to entertain the idea.
But YES, God is just and each of the author’s conclusions were that God is just and is a justifier.

Rob

I just disagree. When these OT folks thought to “judge” God, they were rebuked and rightly so, or they realized all of God’s action are just and righteous, as you stated. We cannot know to judge God.

The OP quoted Deuteronomy 24:16 and says since God told us not to kill children for the sins of their fathers “….our first question is God bound by the commands He gives to humanity?”

The OP is attempting to use this idea of holding God to the same standards He holds us to reject the doctrine of original sin that is clearly taught in scripture.

Thus, my statement stands, such thinking can only lead to heresy.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

For example, David committed sins concerning Bathsheba worthy of death (adultery and then murdering her husband) yet God did not take his life.

However, David’s firstborn son with Bathsheba died just after he was born. Was this punishment from God? For David? Bathsheba? Did God withhold His mercy, though He could have saved the baby?

God never answered Job when he demanded to give a defense before God and claim his innocence.

God essentially told Job that He is God, you don’t get to question His decisions or actions much less judge Him.

peace to you

 

[Van]

You really have two questions. Romans 5:12 clearly states sin entered the world by one man (Adam) and that all have sinned, so the “concept” of original sin is clearly taught in scripture.

The second question you are asking is whether God holds Himself to same standards that He holds us. No, God has no need to judge Himself. He is the standard by which all are judge . Jesus said, “be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

God is perfect. Every decision He makes is perfect. Every action He takes is perfect. Every thought He has is perfect.

What you are doing, in a back handed sort of way, is suggesting WE should judge God by the standards in which He judges us.

This kind of thinking can only lead to heresy.

peace to you

Thank you for clearly taking a position. One I agree with.
I do not do "backed handed" as that is not what Jesus would do.. Plenty of verses teach we are not to judge God. I was trying to discuss our understanding of God"s word concerning "visiting iniquity" on children.

 

[Van]

As humans we have a natural inclination towards sin. Whether we inherit guilt is up for debate but part of being human is the undeniable and irresistible propensity to sin.

John Murray says it well when he comments on Genesis 6:5

There is the intensity — ‘the wickedness of men was great in the earth’; there is the inwardness —‘the imagination of the thoughts of his heart’, and expression unsurpassed in the usage of scripture to indicate that the most rudimentary movement of thought was evil; there is the totality — ‘every imagination’; there is the consistency —‘continually’; there is the exclusiveness — ‘only evil’; there is the early manifestation — from his youth’ [from Gen 8:21]
​

God is just. We all sin and and fall short. Thank God’s for his grace without which we all would perish.

Rob

You are answering a question not asked. The issue is not that if Original Sin is true, then we are predisposed to sin. That is a given. The issue is to address all the claims made by those rejecting the concept of Original Sin.

 

[Van]

I just disagree. When these OT folks thought to “judge” God, they were rebuked and rightly so, or they realized all of God’s action are just and righteous, as you stated. We cannot know to judge God.

The OP quoted Deuteronomy 24:16 and says since God told us not to kill children for the sins of their fathers “….our first question is God bound by the commands He gives to humanity?”

The OP is attempting to use this idea of holding God to the same standards He holds us to reject the doctrine of original sin that is clearly taught in scripture.

Thus, my statement stands, such thinking can only lead to heresy.

peace to you

My thinking is you manufacture false claims, "the OP is attempting to ... reject the doctrine of original sin. The OP was addressing the biblical arguments used to reject Original Sin, not advocating them. Stop attributing to me false doctrine. You are the one who holds many which is why you make up falsehoods about me.

 

[Van]

Does God judge us by standards He has set for us, and not for Himself? Yes.

But is that what God has done saying we are not to kill children because of their father's sin? Nope.

How are the sins of the earthly father visited on his descendants down several generations?

Does my sinful behavior adversely affect my family? Of course. If I express an unbelief in God or in God's commands, what is the likely result in the thinking of my children. Are they likely to be open to God's word as those comprising "fields white for harvest?" Nope

So if I hate God, or show no submission to Him, and I pass this point of view down to my children, they too might hate God or be unwilling to submit to his commands. Clearly the affect of hating God is in view in Deuteronomy 5:9. God clearly allows the adverse impact of the father's sin to "visit upon" his descendants.

But is that the only mechanism God is teaching in Deuteronomy 5:9?

 

[canadyjd]

My thinking is you manufacture false claims, "the OP is attempting to ... reject the doctrine of original sin. The OP was addressing the biblical arguments used to reject Original Sin, not advocating them. Stop attributing to me false doctrine. You are the one who holds many which is why you make up falsehoods about me.

Look Van, you started the OP. You did your usual “some people think”, without giving any reference to anyone that believes Deuteronomy 24:16 means God must judge Himself by the same standards He judges us, and that somehow undermines the “concept”, as you put it, of original sin. You never stated your position.

Since you are constantly starting threads in an attempt to finally be the person that proves Calvinism wrong, this just becomes another in a long line.

But, thanks for attempting to clarify what you mean.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Look Van, you started the OP. You did your usual “some people think”, without giving any reference to anyone that believes Deuteronomy 24:16 means God must judge Himself by the same standards He judges us, and that somehow undermines the “concept”, as you put it, of original sin. You never stated your position.

Since you are constantly starting threads in an attempt to finally be the person that proves Calvinism wrong, this just becomes another in a long line.

But, thanks for attempting to clarify what you mean.

peace to you

I am sorry but obviously your hatred has blinded you to truth.

Here again is my statement:

However, some reject this Original Sin concept because we here on earth are not to cause children to die because of the sins of their fathers. See Deuteronomy 24:16.​

I provided the reasoning for the errant view. Your claims are again manufactured and false.

 

[Van]

Starting threads that teach Biblical truth is a good thing.

 

[canadyjd]

I am sorry but obviously your hatred has blinded you to truth.

Here again is my statement:

However, some reject this Original Sin concept because we here on earth are not to cause children to die because of the sins of their fathers. See Deuteronomy 24:16.​

I provided the reasoning for the errant view. Your claims are again manufactured and false.

Brother, I do not hate you. I think you are horrible at actually understanding scripture, but I don’t hate you or anyone else.

Concerning the OP, please provide a source to support your statement “some reject the concept of original sin because here in earth….”

Who believes that?

BYW, glad to hear you acknowledge the doctrine of original sin.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Brother, I do not hate you. I think you are horrible at actually understanding scripture, but I don’t hate you or anyone else.

Concerning the OP, please provide a source to support your statement “some reject the concept of original sin because here in earth….”

Who believes that?

BYW, glad to hear you acknowledge the doctrine of original sin.
peace to you

The bolded part of your post reflects a lack of a priori assumption on your part. OTOH, your doubt concerning my adherence to biblically supported doctrines demonstrates bias.

Please google "Original Sin is wrong" and you will get plenty of errant articles from people claiming to understand the Bible.

 

[Van]

Returning to topic:
Does God judge us by standards He has set for us, and not for Himself? Yes.

But is that what God has done saying we are not to kill children because of their father's sin? Nope.

How are the sins of the earthly father visited on his descendants down several generations?

Does my sinful behavior adversely affect my family? Of course. If I express an unbelief in God or in God's commands, what is the likely result in the thinking of my children. Are they likely to be open to God's word as those comprising "fields white for harvest?" Nope

So if I hate God, or show no submission to Him, and I pass this point of view down to my children, they too might hate God or be unwilling to submit to his commands. Clearly the affect of hating God is in view in Deuteronomy 5:9. God clearly allows the adverse impact of the father's sin to "visit upon" his descendants.

But is that the only mechanism God is teaching in Deuteronomy 5:9?

Deu 5:9
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,​

 

[Van]

Does sin only poison the minds of directly related children, or might sin poison the minds of others coming of age, like a school teacher or seminary professor presenting falsehoods.? Does God allow that adverse impact upon children down several generations? Yes.

The Hebrew word translated "the fathers" can refer to a biological progenitor, but also has the meaning of a leader of a group.

 

[37818]

New Returning to topic:
Does God judge us by standards He has set for us, and not for Himself? Yes.

No.

Romans 3:4, ". . . God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged. . . ."

Matthew 7:2, ". . . For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. . . ."

Psalms 51:4, ". . . that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest. . . ."

Notice "Thou art judged" was changed from "Thou Judgest" per Jesus' warning in Matthew 7:2. Being God's standard. Genesis 3:22, ". . . And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . ."

Genesis 3:22.