The Cross

[AustinC]

I answered your question but it seems you do not like the answer. Your the one that keep saying context so try to understand the context Austin.

You mean to say that this is your answer to my question?
My question:
Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.


You wrote:

In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, Eph 1:13 NKJV

G5660
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5784
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Your response, above, doesn't answer the question. You literally copied and pasted. I doubt you even know what you posted or what it means.

If you did, you would know that my exegesis of this was correct and shows that "In Him" which starts the sentence, shows you that you were made alive with Christ, before you believed. (Ephesians 2:4-5).

The verses before this also show that you take zero credit for believing.

There is no offer of salvation in the passage. There is only a statement of fact about what God has done.

 

[AustinC]

@AustinC ,

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, BUT you regularly add ideas to passages that are not actually in the text.

Show me.

 

[Silverhair]

You mean to say that this is your answer to my question?
My question:
Where, in all of this text, do you see God "offering" salvation to us as a choice? Point out the exact phrase in this passage.


You wrote:

In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, Eph 1:13 NKJV

G5660
Tense-Aorist See [G5777]
Voice-Active See [G5784]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5784
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

Your response, above, doesn't answer the question. You literally copied and pasted. I doubt you even know what you posted or what it means.

If you did, you would know that my exegesis of this was correct and shows that "In Him" which starts the sentence, shows you that you were made alive with Christ, before you believed. (Ephesians 2:4-5).

The verses before this also show that you take zero credit for believing.

There is no offer of salvation in the passage. There is only a statement of fact about what God has done.

Just few points, what did you expect of course I copied and pasted that information, you do act rather dumb by times. Well it is obvious that you do not know what the active voice means. The active voice means that the subject, the person that hears is the one that believes. So yes the person is the one that believes. God does not make you believe if that were the case it would need to be in the passive voice. In regard to salvation, believe, is always in the active voice.

What do you think the gospel message is Austin? You are just being willfully dumb. You are struggling way to hard to hang on to your denial of the obvious.

Eph 1:13 In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, NKJV

Eph 1:13 ἐνG1722 ᾧG3739 καὶG2532 ὑμεῖς,G4771 ἀκούσαντεςG191 τὸνG3588 λόγονG3056 τῆςG3588 ἀληθείας,G225 τὸG3588 εὐαγγέλιονG2098 τῆςG3588 σωτηρίαςG4991 ὑμῶν,G4771 ἐνG1722 ᾧG3739 καὶG2532 πιστεύσαντεςG4100 ἐσφραγίσθητεG4972 τῷG3588 πνεύματιG4151 τῆςG3588 ἐπαγγελίαςG1860 τῷG3588 ἁγίῳ,G40 Alford

Here is the English and the Greek. I even included the Strong's #'s so you could compare the English and the Greek.

I looked this up just for you Austin
All sentences contain subjects and verbs and some also contain objects. The subject is usually the thing or person who performs the action of the verb.The object is the thing or person that is involved in the action of the verb, but does not carry it out.

In this case the subject is "you G5210" the verb/s are "trusted, after you heard G191" & "having believed G4100" the object would be "the gospel G2098"

Of the 266 times that we find believe /d /s /ing in the New Testament over 260 times it is in the active voice and always in the active voice when it relates to salvation.

 

[AustinC]

Just few points, what did you expect of course I copied and pasted that information, you do act rather dumb by times. Well it is obvious that you do not know what the active voice means. The active voice means that the subject, the person that hears is the one that believes. So yes the person is the one that believes. God does not make you believe if that were the case it would need to be in the passive voice. In regard to salvation, believe, is always in the active voice.

What do you think the gospel message is Austin? You are just being willfully dumb. You are struggling way to hard to hang on to your denial of the obvious.

Eph 1:13 In G1722 Him G3739 you G5210 also G2532 trusted, after you heard G191 (G5660) the word G3056 of truth G225 , the gospel G2098 of your G5216 salvation G4991; in G1722 whom G3739 also G2532, having believed G4100 (G5660), you were sealed G4972 (G5681) with the Holy G40 Spirit G4151 of promise G1860, NKJV

Eph 1:13 ἐνG1722 ᾧG3739 καὶG2532 ὑμεῖς,G4771 ἀκούσαντεςG191 τὸνG3588 λόγονG3056 τῆςG3588 ἀληθείας,G225 τὸG3588 εὐαγγέλιονG2098 τῆςG3588 σωτηρίαςG4991 ὑμῶν,G4771 ἐνG1722 ᾧG3739 καὶG2532 πιστεύσαντεςG4100 ἐσφραγίσθητεG4972 τῷG3588 πνεύματιG4151 τῆςG3588 ἐπαγγελίαςG1860 τῷG3588 ἁγίῳ,G40 Alford

Here is the English and the Greek. I even included the Strong's #'s so you could compare the English and the Greek.

I looked this up just for you Austin
All sentences contain subjects and verbs and some also contain objects. The subject is usually the thing or person who performs the action of the verb.The object is the thing or person that is involved in the action of the verb, but does not carry it out.

In this case the subject is "you G5210" the verb/s are "trusted, after you heard G191" & "having believed G4100" the object would be "the gospel G2098"

Of the 266 times that we find believe /d /s /ing in the New Testament over 260 times it is in the active voice and always in the active voice when it relates to salvation.

What does "In Him" mean to you? Does it mean in Sliverhair?
What does verses 3-12 say about God's work and our position "in Christ?" Do you really intend to ignore all that God does to cause you to believe?
It is clear you desire tunnel vision without context so you can glorify Sliverhair.

 

[Silverhair]

What does "In Him" mean to you? Does it mean in Sliverhair?
What does verses 3-12 say about God's work and our position "in Christ?" Do you really intend to ignore all that God does to cause you to believe?
It is clear you desire tunnel vision without context so you can glorify Sliverhair.

The fact that you will not or will not trust what the bible says is evident to all that read your posts. You will not deal with any scripture that is posted but just keep deflecting, sad really. I do not ignore what the bible says but then again I do not cherry pick what I want to believe, that I will leave to you.

You keep saying I don't deal with context but it seems your idea of context is only what you say it is. I dealt with Eph 1:1-14 already but you do not like it so you just ignore it. But you really can't be faulted for your view as it has all been determined for you, so no independent thought on your part.

 

[AustinC]

The fact that you will not or will not trust what the bible says is evident to all that read your posts. You will not deal with any scripture that is posted but just keep deflecting, sad really. I do not ignore what the bible says but then again I do not cherry pick what I want to believe, that I will leave to you.

You keep saying I don't deal with context but it seems your idea of context is only what you say it is. I dealt with Eph 1:1-14 already but you do not like it so you just ignore it. But you really can't be faulted for your view as it has all been determined for you, so no independent thought on your part.

Again, I trust the Bible. Your assertion about me is demonstrably false. I trust the Bible in its God given context. My point about you is that you ignore context, as is very evident by what you are doing here.
I also note that you refuse to respond to what it means to be "in Him" which is the very first words of Ephesians 1:13-14. I am pretty sure I know why you won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.

*Ephesians 1:13-14*
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

As to Ephesians 1:1-14, I already responded to everything you said. But, you ignore what it means to be in Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, I trust the Bible. Your assertion about me is demonstrably false. I trust the Bible in its God given context. My point about you is that you ignore context, as is very evident by what you are doing here.
I also note that you refuse to respond to what it means to be "in Him" which is the very first words of Ephesians 1:13-14. I am pretty sure I know why you won't touch that with a 10 foot pole.

*Ephesians 1:13-14*
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

As to Ephesians 1:1-14, I already responded to everything you said. But, you ignore what it means to be in Christ.

Actually if you read Ephesians 1:13 without your calvinist glasses you will see what it means and even how one is "in Him". You continue to over look a critical part of the verse, the part that tells us why that comes about "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him". God does not hear or believe for us as I pointed out to you but as per usual you ignore whatever you do not like.

Being in Christ Jesus = being saved but you continue to ignore the reason why they are in Him as stated in this verse. The person heard and believed. If the person had not believed they would not be in Christ Jesus would they.

You are so fixated on proving your theological position that you will ignore the text of scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Actually if you read Ephesians 1:13 without your calvinist glasses you will see what it means and even how one is "in Him". You continue to over look a critical part of the verse, the part that tells us why that comes about "when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him". God does not hear or believe for us as I pointed out to you but as per usual you ignore whatever you do not like.

Being in Christ Jesus = being saved but you continue to ignore the reason why they are in Him as stated in this verse. The person heard and believed. If the person had not believed they would not be in Christ Jesus would they.

You are so fixated on proving your theological position that you will ignore the text of scripture.

I note that you are once again stuck on one verse and ignore the whole.

I don't overlook the "when you heard and believed." I see that phrase in light of the whole of scripture. Clearly, in Ephesians 2:4-9, God gives us insight into how it is that we heard and believed. It ties into us being chosen and predestined in the verses before verse 13 as well as into the fact that before God made us alive with Christ, we were dead in our trespasses and sins. The cause of our hearing and belief is God who made us alive with Christ and placed us in Him.

But, if you were to actually step out of your out-of-context bubble, you would be forced to acknowledge your error. So, you tighten the reins and focus on a part of a sentence, then tell me I don't believe the Bible. Your accusation is ludicrous and moronic, yet you double down on your accusation.

 

[Silverhair]

I note that you are once again stuck on one verse and ignore the whole.

I don't overlook the "when you heard and believed." I see that phrase in light of the whole of scripture. Clearly, in Ephesians 2:4-9, God gives us insight into how it is that we heard and believed. It ties into us being chosen and predestined in the verses before verse 13 as well as into the fact that before God made us alive with Christ, we were dead in our trespasses and sins. The cause of our hearing and belief is God who made us alive with Christ and placed us in Him.

But, if you were to actually step out of your out-of-context bubble, you would be forced to acknowledge your error. So, you tighten the reins and focus on a part of a sentence, then tell me I don't believe the Bible. Your accusation is ludicrous and moronic, yet you double down on your accusation.

You are actually funny, you claim I do not understand "in Him" in Eph 1:13 and when I point out the error in your thinking you say NO NO NO that is not what I meant you have to look at this now. But I have already dealt with Eph 1:1-14 so this is just another attempt from you to redirect the topic that you can not deal with. Then we see that Martin has to chime in to support your errant theology. You are both stuck in your calvinist philosophy that has it's roots in Augustine's pagan theology.

And as you know if the root is bad so is the tree and as the bible points out you will not get good fruit from a bad tree.

 

[JonC]

Show me.

Seriously???

You have provided numerous passages claiming they teach that God punished Jesus instead of us when that was not actually in the text you provided.

You have provided verses claiming limited atonement when those verses do not actually state what you claim they teach.

Your entire theology is based on what you believe is taught in Scripture rather than what is written in God's Word.

 

[AustinC]

Seriously???

You have provided numerous passages claiming they teach that God punished Jesus instead of us when that was not actually in the text you provided.

You have provided verses claiming limited atonement when those verses do not actually state what you claim they teach.

Your entire theology is based on what you believe is taught in Scripture rather than what is written in God's Word.

Jon, I have provided scripture, showing that Jesus is our substitute.
You reject Jesus as a substitute, saying the scripture provided doesn't show this. Then you drop some scripture and never explain it, because you say you cannot explain it. You agree with Jesus as a ransom, but you reject the ransom theory. What we are left with is a person who has no clue what he believes, but rejects what the vast majority of the Church believes.

Since you are unable to provide any evidence, I take your claims as empty statements.

 

[JonC]

Jon, I have provided scripture, showing that Jesus is our substitute.
You reject Jesus as a substitute, saying the scripture provided doesn't show this. Then you drop some scripture and never explain it, because you say you cannot explain it. You agree with Jesus as a ransom, but you reject the ransom theory. What we are left with is a person who has no clue what he believes, but rejects what the vast majority of the Church believes.

Since you are unable to provide any evidence, I take your claims as empty statements.

No. You have provided Scripture and then said that means Penal Substitution Theory.

That is my point. What you actually believe - the very foundation of your faith- is not actually in God's Word (in the text of Scripture) and it is impossible for your faith to pass the test of Scripture.

You "prove" your view by saying what you believes is taught by Scripture is what Scripture teaches, then you offer a verse and add to it what you believe is taught.

 

[37818]

Isaiah 53:6, ,". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . .

Matthew 20:28, ". . . Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. . . ." . . . αυτου λυτρον αντι πολλων . . . .

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:6, ,". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . .

Matthew 20:28, ". . . Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. . . ." . . . αυτου λυτρον αντι πολλων . . . .

Good passages.

The problem is not that @AustinC adds to them, although he does, but that he criticizes others for not simply believing the text of Scripture verbatim.

Your example is great.

I also believe that the Lord laid the iniquity of us all on Him. I believe that even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

BUT I am talking about those who would add things like God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us to that text.

 

[AustinC]

No. You have provided Scripture and then said that means Penal Substitution Theory.

That is my point. What you actually believe - the very foundation of your faith- is not actually in God's Word (in the text of Scripture) and it is impossible for your faith to pass the test of Scripture.

You "prove" your view by saying what you believes is taught by Scripture is what Scripture teaches, then you offer a verse and add to it what you believe is taught.

Do you see no substitute in Isaiah 53?
*Isaiah 53:4-11*
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Jon, you have yet to give us any coherent belief as to what Jesus death actually accomplished. You started this thread and then you provided nothing about what you actually believe. There have been multiple threads on this topic and you have been as non-committal as a mattress at a bowling alley.

 

[JonC]

Do you see no substitute in Isaiah 53?
*Isaiah 53:4-11*
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Jon, you have yet to give us any coherent belief as to what Jesus death actually accomplished. You started this thread and then you provided nothing about what you actually believe. There have been multiple threads on this topic and you have been as non-committal as a mattress at a bowling alley.

Substitution in the text of Isaiah 53? No, of course not.

That's the point.

Point out the exact phrase in this passage.

 

[AustinC]

Substitution in the text of Isaiah 53? No, of course not.

That's the point.

So the passage (I even highlighted the text to make it obvious) isn't expressing a substitution?
And, you say you see Jesus as the Passover Lamb, but as the Lamb he didn't substitute his blood for ours.

Jon, your Jesus is impotent.

 

[JonC]

So the passage (I even highlighted the text to make it obvious) isn't expressing a substitution?
And, you say you see Jesus as the Passover Lamb, but as the Lamb he didn't substitute his blood for ours.

Jon, your Jesus is impotent.

The text itself is not expressing substitution..

The text does express several things - God sending the Righteous One as a guilt offering, the Servant giving Himself as an offering, this suffering being the punishment due the audience ("us"), our iniquities being laid upon Him, ect.

Where do you read substitution in the text and why?

Highlight (put in bold) where this Servant in Isaiah is described as a substitute for us.

That's rhetorical because we know you can't. It is what you read into the text.

Likewise with the Passover lamb. The lamb's blood was the reason death passed over the home. But the blood is nowhere indicated to be a substitute for the household. You read into the Exodus account.

My observation is you condemningly accuse others of doing what you do.

 

[37818]

. . . God punishing Jesus instead of punishing us to that text.

The Greek anti αντι translated as "for" in Matthew 20:28. The Modern Literal Version translates as "in exchange-for."

 

[AustinC]

The text itself is not expressing substitution..

The text does express several things - God sending the Righteous One as a guilt offering, the Servant giving Himself as an offering, this suffering being the punishment due the audience ("us"), our iniquities being laid upon Him, ect.

Where do you read substitution in the text and why?

Highlight (put in bold) where this Servant in Isaiah is described as a substitute for us.

That's rhetorical because we know you can't. It is what you read into the text.

Likewise with the Passover lamb. The lamb's blood was the reason death passed over the home. But the blood is nowhere indicated to be a substitute for the household. You read into the Exodus account.

My observation is you condemningly accuse others of doing what you do.

So, the firstborn deaths are not substituted by the blood of the lamb?
Jon, you literally have no power in whatever it is you believe. You have no connection between Jesus and the Passover Lamb. You have blood that is powerless to save.