Featured Christ's Death

I'm not sure this technically belongs here, but I'm putting it here because it is based on a Calvinistic understanding of the Cross that is shared with Arminianism yet not with historic Christianity.

it has been explained that Christ was made "sin", but nor literally. This was Christ bearing our sins (I agree with him on that point).

But from there many hold that God punished our sins laid on Christ in order to redeem us. Our sin became Christ's and His righteousness became ours (our sins imputed to Him, His righteousness imputed to us).

Christ was forsaken by the Father and God separated from Christ (not in a sence as to break the Trinity).

Our redemption, per this view, was accomplished in this manner on the cross, and once it was done Christ cried out "it is finished!".

He then committed His Spirit to the Father and died.

The issue

Historic Christianity holds that our redemption was accomplished through Christ's physical death on the Cross. Christ suffered under the curse, but the culmination of this suffering was death - the "sinless One" becoming a curse and experiencing the wages of sin on our behalf by dying physically on the Cross.

Theologies of a Calvinistic trajectory, however, view our redemption as as being accomplished through the Father's punishment of sin (NOT through the Son's death on the Cross).

My question

What is, to those who hold the Calvinistic idea of the Cross, the significance of Christ's death towards our redemption?

 

Because I want to know what the death of Christ accomplished in the minds of those who hold that view.

Others believe that way as well. You don't need to respond.

 

I didn't say it was the Calvinist position.

I said it is based on a Calvinistic understanding.

The 19th century anti-mission movement was based on a Calvinistic understanding. BUT it is far from the Calvinist position.

The way it has been related to me (by a brother who holds this view) is:

1. The Father laid our sins on on the Son
2. The Father punished our sins laid upon Christ
3. The Father poured out His wrath, the wrath due our sins, on His Son instead of punishing us
4. The Father departed from (forsook) the Son because of our sin
5. In this way the Father satisfied our debt of sin and we were freed from sin

6. After this the Son declared "it is finished"
7. The Son committed His Spirit into the Father's hands (no longer separated)
8. Christ died.


I get how all of that leading up to Christ's death (in their view) redeemed us.

BUT what part did Christ's death play in actual redemption?

 

I understand the idea behind 1-8. And I get that those who hold this view use Christ's "death" as a metaphor for 1-7. I get that.

Let me put it this way (a theological hypothetical).

Let's say #8 was missing:

1. The Father laid our sins on on the Son
2. The Father punished our sins laid upon Christ
3. The Father poured out His wrath, the wrath due our sins, on His Son instead of punishing us
4. The Father departed from (forsook) the Son because of our sin
5. In this way the Father satisfied our debt of sin and we were freed from sin

6. After this the Son declared "it is finished"
7. The Son was no longer separated from the Father.

8. The Son stepped down from the Cross instead of dying.


How is this redemption different in application?

 

He did (Isaiah 53).

I'm not arguing for the position that bases our salvation on demands of tge divine justice of the Father. I'm just asking about it.

 

I'm asking hypothetically. It is not inappropriate as it isolates the precise issue.

Historically Christians viewed Christ's death (His actual death) as that point of redemption.

But this changed with Calvinism. The perspective shifted to the Father punishing our sins instead of us.

So what is, in that view, the purpose of Christ's actual death in regard to man's redemption?

My only conclusion is that theologies of a Calvinistic trajectory have no use of Christ's death because our redemption is based on Christ taking our punishment instead of us and that being accomplished prior to His Spirit being commended into the hands of the Father.

 

It's very windy here as well. I slept through most of it so far (got off work this morning).

BUT it should be a beautiful day tomorrow.

 

The reason to discuss Christ's death is that for most of Christian history it has been the central part of its theology of redemption. A few centuries ago this was challenged, and that challenge has become a popular position.

Christ's death for our sins needs to be discussed. And we should not feel ashamed to discuss it.

Scripture tells us that Christ's actual death was for our sins.

In your opinion, how was Christ's death (Christ commending His Spirit into the hands of the Father) "for our sins"?

 

First, I was a Calvinist for a long time. I didn't hold the view I am asking about. You are the one being disingenuous here by acting as if I am talking about Calvinism when I have told you that I am not. I am talking about a view that is based on a Calvinistic understanding of the Cross.

I even gave you an example.

That said, I know Calvinists and non-Calvinists who will say Christ died for our sins, but they explain away His death by saying we were redeemed by the Fatger punishing Christ before His death.

It does not matter what a book was titled (for the record, I like Owen's book).


Second - the "shedding of blood" means "death" or "killing". I agree.

My point is people who hold the view that our redemption is accomplished via the Father punishing the Son on the Cross instead of punishing us already "goes there". They explain aspects of Chriat's work in detail via philosophy rather than Scripture (i.e., such and such must mean this because....).

Why is it inappropriate to ask about what is actually written in God's Word?

Christ died. Christ died for our sins. His Spirit was commended into the hands of the Father.

What did that actually accomplish?

The view I am speaking of holds that our redemption was accomplished BEFORE His death while there was a separation between God and Christ.

In terms of redemption Christ's actual death was meaningless (He had already redeemed man, already taken the wrath of God intended for our sins).