Featured Christ's Death

Two points 1] I was referring to Romans 5:10 in my post & 2] I have G C Morgans commentary in my bible program.
How many times have you seen on this board that we are saved by His atonement or words to that effect. Actually we have seen some claim that they were chosen/saved before the foundation of the world. So when and how do you think one is saved? When is one regenerated/saved and why?

 

The SECOND DEATH “hung in the balance” on the Cross.
[I just love puns.]

 

Logically if Christ was made actual sin then He would not be the sinless lamb would He?
Compare:
2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
to this scripture
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1Pe_2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Propitiation
In theology, the atonement or atoning sacrifice {sin offering} offered to God to assuage his wrath and render him propitious to sinners.

Do you really think that Paul intended to say that Christ was a sinner or that He was a sin offering to appease the wrath of God against sinful man?

 

You are correct in what you say people state on this board. If you are asking me personally, I think we are saved when we come to Christ by faith, believing that Jesus is who he claimed to be and believing that he is willing to save us personally and that he is able to do so because of what he did in his life and in his death and resurrection.

As far as the timing, I believe that you can drive yourself nuts over the logic if you wish. I do think that you are probably regenerated or born again before you believe, which is why many of us are just going along and at some point it all seems clear to us and we start being intensely interested in Christ whereas before we were not interested. It's like a light came on. But I do not see why someone who believes faith came before being born again would not be just as much of a Christian. It may surprise you but Owen himself did not like to assert too strongly the order of salvation.

 

Paul intended to say what Paul said: Christ was made sin.

He said what he meant and he meant what he said.

Christ's sinlessness is precisely what allowed him to embody the sin of others. There is no contradiction.

 

I was talking about sin having a tangible manifestation in the spiritual world.

 

You said it: "sin".

 

Now I can agree with much of what you say but the being saved before you believe is a tad to far for me. The bible is quite clear on that point, hear, then believe what you have heard, then you are saved. Ephesians 1:13 and why would someone call on the Lord if they did not think that He could save them Romans 10:13.

I think that the order of salvation is stated quite clearly by Paul
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Working backwards, Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Confession/Calling → Salvation.

What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.

 

Then you must have a different understanding of what being made something means.

 

We've talked about this before and I just don't think we have it in us to desire to come to Christ. What changes us on this is something the Holy Spirit does to us. Therefore I lean to a Calvinistic system that allows for that. I will not go along with a system that does not truly make an offer of the gospel to everyone and does not say that anyone who comes will be saved. But a good part of Calvinism does that - but not all by any means.

 

As if 7&8 aren't the same, in the previous numbering.

After 6 in this numbering 7&8 must again be Separation of Soul and Spirit, which is Death.

How is this redemption different in application? There is none.

The Surety stepped aside and didn't perform/ which would have been impossible for Christ and the Testator would not execute the Covenant of Grace.

Mercy and truth did not met together; righteousness and peace have not kissed each other.

Again, that would be impossible for the Father's Perfect Surety and Testator.

 

So if man does not have it in himself to desire to come to Him then why does God tell us to seek Him? Jeremiah 29:13 And note it is not just a casual type of seeking but a diligent one, but it is still the person that does the seeking.

Yes I agree it is something that the Holy Spirit does. He convicts man of His sin. John 16:8-9 Because all man are convicted some will be receptive to the gospel message. But did you notice that He convicts the world, all men, not just some. So all men have the chance to trust in God.

You say that you cannot go along with a system that does not truly make an offer of the gospel to everyone and does not say that anyone who comes will be saved. But that would exclude Calvinism from those that you could go along with. The offer of salvation in Calvinism cannot be a well meant offer for all as it has exclusions built into it. To make an offer of salvation knowing that the vast majority can not respond to it is, in simple terms, dishonest. Are you saying that God is being dishonest in the offer of salvation?

Under Calvinism only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Are you saying you do not agree with the TULIP understanding of Sorteriology?

Your last comment raised a question, what part of Calvinism makes a good faith offer and which does not do so in your view?

 

The verse says "sin"; not "sin offering".

 

Again, for the 3rd and last time dear brother, he became a serpent and a worm on the cross once he became the physical embodiment of sin. That (serpent, worm) illustrates what Paul meant by "sin".